Community Input: Food, Chemistry and Drug Production.

Chip Lawrie

Lead Game Writer

Staff member
Jun 1, 2017
724
Manhattan
Terran Defense Corps
Rank: Game Master
Service Points: 800813
My recent bit of lore: https://forums.mankindreborn.com/threads/lore-food-glorious-food.1610/ got us thinking in the development team about how we want food to work. As part of this, we want restaurants and similar player-owned businesses to play a part since this impacts gameplay and has the potential to impact chemical process production (which includes stuff like dyes for clothes/armour, drugs, plastics, etc) we want to get some feedback from you, our community, on our plans:

Food

First, let's talk about food. There will be hunger and thirst bars, before the mass panic you'll be glad to know that a lack of food and water will not kill you but it does affect your Health and Stamina regeneration - being well fed and watered means you can recover faster than if you're hungry and thirsty. Food itself is unlikely to have as much as an impact (other than the hunger and thirst bars) on regeneration as they did in FoM however we want it to still be worthwhile eating food of various types. Food is produced using specialised production terminals (called kitchens) from ingredients combined into recipes. Once you know a recipe you'll know it until permadeath. We want there to be an element of experimentation when it comes to food so you'll be able to discover recipes both from talking to other players and from mixing ingredients into different slots in the kitchen and using different methods (frying, baking, steaming etc). Kitchens are available in most apartments though cheaper apartments will have fewer options for preparation method (i.e. starter apartments have a microwave while high-end apartments have everything) and industrial kitchens found in businesses will have various bonuses either in speed or recipes available. Finished food comes in various qualities that will impact the amount of hunger and thirst restored this is impacted by ingredients and type.

Food ingredients come in three basic types, Vat, Fresh and Flavourings. Vat food as I'm sure you'll be able to guess from the lore come in a few basic types Yellow (Sheet, Grain, Flour), Red, Blue, Green and White. Vat food is produced in vats from various harvested ingredients (such as biomass and proteins). Flavourings come in a wide variety of types (and will be addressed in the chemicals part below) but these are particularly important when it comes to vat food (which is bland and requires the flavourings to make tastes distinct). The various fast-food franchises have their own flavourings that those who have bought a franchise can use. Fresh food is produced at farms on the frontier and includes a wide variety of ingredients (not all farms produce all things - depends on colony improvements though in general farms produce their ingredients over time). Ingredients impact the amount of hunger and thirst restored for each recipe - the better the ingredients the more hunger and thirst restored with vat food, in general, being inferior to the equivalent fresh food.

Recipes come in three basic types, snacks, hand food and meals. This relates to the states required for consumption, snacks - snack bars, crisps, drinks cans etc, can be eaten on the move. Hand foods - most fast food, sandwiches, etc, can be eaten anywhere while seated or while moving for a severe movement penalty. Meals - nice meals and shared drinks (such as wine) etc, must be eaten at a table. The recipe type generally determines the max amount of hunger or thirst restored with snacks restoring the least and full meals the most.


Chemistry

Chemicals are produced at chemical stations from various raw chemical ingredients extracted from specialised mining systems, these ingredients would be mixed in varying amounts to create differing end products. Like with food we'd like an element of experimentation here. In order to show to the system what type of chemical is being produced, we'd have a few ingredients that would show what is to be produced (i.e. msg for flavourings, or complex carbons for plastics etc.) This would be used to produce the various chemical products that are required for secondary and tertiary production within the Union. This system would also be vital for the clothing and armouring industries as it allows players to produce a wide variety of colours for dyes meaning we can get a wide variety of uniform, fashion and styles of clothing without requiring a vast amount of cuts/models. There is also an advantage to this system in that we can easily add new items as the game goes on, meaning that technology can progress within the universe of MR without us having to adjust huge swathes of pmods.

Drugs

Drugs work exactly like chemicals but are produced at special chemical stations (or ones that have had the legality interlocks hacked) - we want to work on various ways of making drugs somewhat exclusive without doing so artificially. One suggestion is to have one or two ingredients that are only available at Synd HQ (or creatable using Synd pmods) that are vital for the most useful (or interesting) narcotics. Like with ordinary chemicals we can easily add new types of drugs as the game goes on, meaning that there can always be a new 'hip' designer drug for the elites of the Union to try.
 

Egroeg

Advocate

Bronzed Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 10, 2017
205
Area 69, Antarctica
The Syndicate
Rank: Master (R6)
Service Points: 0
Fooood, as a member of the ol' Food Council, it pleases my bones to see how dynamic yall are looking at handling food. I like the different types and ways to make each one, can't wait to try it out and provide better feedback to perfect it.


On the topic of drugs, I like the idea of having a couple of vital ingredients exclusive to The Syndicate. As it allows us to control the drug game more but doesn't stop anyone from still being able to produce a couple of their own, maybe of lesser quality.

As for creating them, you can expand it more with looking to have different quality levels of the same type of drug. Depending on how well the drug was made it would increase the boosting effect, remove negatives, etc. They can be crafted at various spots, ranging in quality of producing drugs. Such as on the streets/bathtub vs A drug lab or HQ terminals are locations that can affect how the drug turns out. Same with anything that affects it, getting chemical amounts right, managing/watching your drugs mix and be produced as a "violent reaction" can happen and affect how they turn out. Something like a minigame or just basic oversight on your cooking process can help keep the process stable and make your drugs turn out right without too many negative impacts. This allows different qualities/versions of the same drug to be made, making sometimes going to a more expensive dealer better, allows for less competition and opens a broader market the more variables you include into the production process.


I also do like you guys able to continue to add things here and there and allow new things to be made/progress/keep things new. This could be faction goals to maybe do objectives/complete minor goals that can lead up to a new invention taking place. This would work for the corps and clans to push the faction to complete minor goals and in the end, new products or drugs can be pushed out/discovered. Maybe the inventor(s)/discoveror(s) can name the object. (pending approval)

~My 3cents
 
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Wilbon

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Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
36
The Syndicate
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
In response to drug production, which was only the real ecoing I did in FoM:

I think there were a couple of flaws in drug production in fom that could be done better here. Two major ones come to mind.

Firstly, the production process should be more involved. In fom, it was the same as any other ecoing process except the final stage, and that was pretty much the same except you needed a code to the drug and it used a different interface. This led to BoS having ecoing parties of mass producing drugs while doing missions, which ultimately meant that a bunch of BoS would sit around and chat shit for two hours while processes ran and all the costs of producing the drugs were covered by the mission. The point of making drugs should be to then sell them to make a profit but in fom you made money just for making them, so many just kept them for self-use or made them for orders put in by other individuals. For producing illicit narcotics, I think it'd be beneficial to make the process more involved, require a real monetary investment, and be somewhat risky (i.e. allow CPC some way to discover someone is producing drugs and also take down drug labs, while SYN can build them elsewhere and ideally hidden away).

Secondly, the ability to produce drugs internally should be controllable by SYN leadership. In fom, there was a serious issue with too many cooks in the kitchen. Because it was so simplistic and unrestricted to produce drugs, everyone in BoS did it. The part that was supposed to be the gatekeeper for it were the codes, but everyone had them saved in a note and forwarded to anyone who asked for it. Essentially, it meant that every member of BoS had their own operation of producing and selling (if they even actually did) drugs. It also meant that everyone in BoS competed among each other and despite faction rules opposing it, members undercut each other because there was no real way to enforce it and drugs were cheap as balls. Allowing SYN to restrict it, can make it so there are significantly less people who can/will produce drugs, and they will in turn provide it to other faction members to sell them. It'll lessen the overflow and create more opportunities for SYN as a group to profit as a collaboration rather than a bunch of competitors.

I grossly feel I worded this poorly so if need be I can rephrase/elaborate another time.

As a side note on the custom drug topic: I think it'd be good if in whatever process it was that the producers had to make drugs, there was a fair bit of space for experimentation that would change the pros/cons of particular drugs or even the potential to effect other characteristics. As an example scenario, perhaps there could be a new meta or discovery that would be aided by a drug that effects a certain characteristic (like ana with stamina, coca with resistance, etc) but that drug doesn't currently exist. So producers experiment and try to fill that need by imposing a new drug. That new drug can be very valuable while it is still in low supply and high demand due to a meta change.
 

John White

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Jul 23, 2018
148
Avalon Enterprises
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
Suggested food:
Mutated rat kebab.

As for illegal drugs.
Chemicals needed to make controlled substances, are usually controlled substances themselves.
What if it's made so you can only "mine" chemicals if you have a license for it. (possible corp dept perk?)
So synd will either have to bribe someone with it, or steal from them.
Both create opportunities for CPC to interfere.
With in one case CPC having to work their way up the chain and find out who's leaking the chems, and in another CPC trying to find synd before stolen goods are turned into drugs and sold on the streets.
Of course not all chems should be locked behind like that, but only the ones needed for creating higher tier, stronger, drugs.

As for illegal drug production, Official industrial plants/terminals will likely have protection installed, preventing average joe from creating controlled substances. So Synd can either build their own labs/kitchens which CPC can sniff out and later, raid and shut down.
Or hack official terminals to accept the illegal schematic. In terms of hacking, CPC will be notified after some amount of time, depending how well the hack was executed, giving officers a mission to investigate.

A warrant system for CPC to check suspect's storage for illegal substances would be nice. With a fine or something, when suspect is clean, to prevent CPC randomly checking everyone.

I was in BoS for only short period of time in an administrative position, so I wouldn't know much about lower rank struggles.
When I was in other factions thought I never felt the need to work with BoS to get drugs. Would be good to avoid that.

Having reasons that make drug production/usage less alluring for corps and agencies would be great.

Might have gotten a bit off-topic there.

Now for food effects:
2 separate bars for food and liquid seems too much. Maybe combine it into one called sustenance or life support or something.
Or just have them share one actual bar so UI isn't cluttered with all the bars. Ones that are present feel like too much already.
As for effects other than not having to actually slow walk everywhere, maybe special interactions, emotes or animations that can only be triggered while under effects of food or drugs, mostly drugs.

Back to bars, maybe not have thirst or hunger bars at all and just make it part of bio energy bar instead. Like depending how well fed and hydrated you are you can only have up to certain amount of bio energy. Bio energy in turn can affect stamina regeneration and consciousness.

If some of this makes no sense, it's 8 am, gn.
 
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Wilbon

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Dec 20, 2018
36
The Syndicate
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
Personally, I disagree with the idea of corps being a gate keeper to the drugs via the production materials. I think it'd be most beneficial if The Syndicate is the group that can be that gatekeeper. I think the corporation's participation in the production of drugs can be through their economic contracts. Like in FoM, sometimes BoS would hire CMG/EC to gather the production materials needed for a drug batch because it could be cheaper and free up more time to have a corporation member do that part. But I was also thinking in the same vein of SYN being able to create drug labs. Here's basically what I've been brainstorming:
_____________
Firstly, I believe that drug production should be done via specific deployable terminals that only The Syndicate can normally acquire. The deployable element is to make them have the ability to be moved around, to avoid them being found. Whether it's purchased or exclusively made, these drug labs should have to have originated from a member of The Syndicate before entering anyone else's hands. This doesn't exclude anyone from outside the faction from owning or using them, but just puts their regulation in responsibility of The Syndicate, who are the baron of illegal substances.

Placement

Drug labs should be deployable on turfs controlled by Syndicate families/factions or in apartments. There would be pros and cons to each of these deployment locations.

Drug labs in a family-controlled turf provides the family to have stronger protection for the lab. Through the means of security barriers, deployable defense, and family members defending the turf, they can essentially garrison a place/region that produces their drugs. Or they may put it in a territory they're not active on to sway attention from area. Either way, the risk is that it puts the lab more public and there's the possibility of labs getting ninja'd. However; this level of publicity allows the owner of the lab to remain anonymous and untraceable, at higher risk of lab loss.

Alternatively drug labs in apartments can be more concealed and safer to operate. There'd be less need to have people around to defend it or someone to notice that a social area is suspiciously heavily guarded/restricted access. But the cost to this is that if that apartment should be raided for whatever reason and the lab is found, then the owner of the lab can hold full accountability for owning it (real world law: maintaining a place for the purpose of distribution/establishing manufacturing operations) and get dicked by CPC for it (thinking like huge PP fine), whereas the public variant can be owned anonymously.

The Drug Lab

If a SYN member with appropriate rank goes to use the lab, it should work as normal. If one without rank or someone outside of the faction that placed the lab down attempts to use it, it should be access restricted but have the ability to be hacked open.

If the hack fails, it should block further attempts for a cooldown period and/or alert people of the failed attempt. This could be on a turf-wide, department (family)-wide or faction-wide scale, whichever seems most feasible. If it is successful, the hacker gets access to the lab until it is either picked up or some condition triggers (probably just another timer).

The lab should have it's own connected storage, separate to normal storage terminals. In this respect, it should be impossible to transfer items from storage to drug lab and vice versa (lore: not connected to the storage network or something), and have to be manually deposited/withdrawn. Drugs should always work like this and should need to be delivered to people in face-to-face trades (or dead drops) but non-illegal production materials should be transferable between storage terminals on the network normally. Resources deposited into the storage can then be used as input to produce different drugs, which will be deposited back into storage as output. This will require people to manually transfer things to and from the lab, creating a level of risk to doing so (ganked/scanned/arrested/mugged). Destroying the lab deletes everything in its inventory.

This also makes hacking into the lab before outright destroying it a decent option, as you have something to gain by doing so. It also emphasizes the importance of defending/hiding the lab, as not only is the deployable an expensive loss, but anything in it as well.

Impacts

This system is designed to make drug production something that requires more effort and coordination with decent risk than FoM ever did. All factors considered, it can make drugs particularly expensive and more challenging to obtain, which is the point of drugs being illegal in the first place. It also offers greater tension, as other families within The Syndicate, CPC, and even other factions will be just as interested in locating drug labs as it's an opportunity to seize them and it's contents.

Any and all factions can gain from hacking into the lab to steal contents, but with the right resources in their storages, the potential to make their own drugs exists which would ultimately be cheaper than buying from drug dealers, who will have inflated the prices in distribution. Doing this would be more challenging and risky as it requires you to have the knowledge to create the drugs you desire, and also hack into the lab, but potentially worth the risk.

It considers player freedom still. Under one leader, SYN may outright sell drug labs to other factions for a markup, allowing them to make drugs for their faction at a significant upstart cost. Or it may heavily controlled by only SYN families.
_____________
I still don't really know of a decent method for making the production process more involved. I've also not considered every drawback so there may be some issues with this kind of implementation. I'm dummy dummy not smart man but I'm trying to think from the perspective of my previous post and the idea that the market won't be flooded with them like FoM, so they can be a quite lucrative business but also an unstable one (much like drugs irl).
 

Rian Felix

Citizen

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Apr 21, 2018
52
Ghent, Belgium
Civil Protection Commission
Rank: Superintendent (R5)
Service Points: 0
Personally, I disagree with the idea of corps being a gate keeper to the drugs via the production materials. I think it'd be most beneficial if The Syndicate is the group that can be that gatekeeper. I think the corporation's participation in the production of drugs can be through their economic contracts. Like in FoM, sometimes BoS would hire CMG/EC to gather the production materials needed for a drug batch because it could be cheaper and free up more time to have a corporation member do that part. But I was also thinking in the same vein of SYN being able to create drug labs. Here's basically what I've been brainstorming:
_____________
Firstly, I believe that drug production should be done via specific deployable terminals that only The Syndicate can normally acquire. The deployable element is to make them have the ability to be moved around, to avoid them being found. Whether it's purchased or exclusively made, these drug labs should have to have originated from a member of The Syndicate before entering anyone else's hands. This doesn't exclude anyone from outside the faction from owning or using them, but just puts their regulation in responsibility of The Syndicate, who are the baron of illegal substances.

Placement

Drug labs should be deployable on turfs controlled by Syndicate families/factions or in apartments. There would be pros and cons to each of these deployment locations.

Drug labs in a family-controlled turf provides the family to have stronger protection for the lab. Through the means of security barriers, deployable defense, and family members defending the turf, they can essentially garrison a place/region that produces their drugs. Or they may put it in a territory they're not active on to sway attention from area. Either way, the risk is that it puts the lab more public and there's the possibility of labs getting ninja'd. However; this level of publicity allows the owner of the lab to remain anonymous and untraceable, at higher risk of lab loss.

Alternatively drug labs in apartments can be more concealed and safer to operate. There'd be less need to have people around to defend it or someone to notice that a social area is suspiciously heavily guarded/restricted access. But the cost to this is that if that apartment should be raided for whatever reason and the lab is found, then the owner of the lab can hold full accountability for owning it (real world law: maintaining a place for the purpose of distribution/establishing manufacturing operations) and get dicked by CPC for it (thinking like huge PP fine), whereas the public variant can be owned anonymously.

The Drug Lab

If a SYN member with appropriate rank goes to use the lab, it should work as normal. If one without rank or someone outside of the faction that placed the lab down attempts to use it, it should be access restricted but have the ability to be hacked open.

If the hack fails, it should block further attempts for a cooldown period and/or alert people of the failed attempt. This could be on a turf-wide, department (family)-wide or faction-wide scale, whichever seems most feasible. If it is successful, the hacker gets access to the lab until it is either picked up or some condition triggers (probably just another timer).

The lab should have it's own connected storage, separate to normal storage terminals. In this respect, it should be impossible to transfer items from storage to drug lab and vice versa (lore: not connected to the storage network or something), and have to be manually deposited/withdrawn. Drugs should always work like this and should need to be delivered to people in face-to-face trades (or dead drops) but non-illegal production materials should be transferable between storage terminals on the network normally. Resources deposited into the storage can then be used as input to produce different drugs, which will be deposited back into storage as output. This will require people to manually transfer things to and from the lab, creating a level of risk to doing so (ganked/scanned/arrested/mugged). Destroying the lab deletes everything in its inventory.

This also makes hacking into the lab before outright destroying it a decent option, as you have something to gain by doing so. It also emphasizes the importance of defending/hiding the lab, as not only is the deployable an expensive loss, but anything in it as well.

Impacts

This system is designed to make drug production something that requires more effort and coordination with decent risk than FoM ever did. All factors considered, it can make drugs particularly expensive and more challenging to obtain, which is the point of drugs being illegal in the first place. It also offers greater tension, as other families within The Syndicate, CPC, and even other factions will be just as interested in locating drug labs as it's an opportunity to seize them and it's contents.

Any and all factions can gain from hacking into the lab to steal contents, but with the right resources in their storages, the potential to make their own drugs exists which would ultimately be cheaper than buying from drug dealers, who will have inflated the prices in distribution. Doing this would be more challenging and risky as it requires you to have the knowledge to create the drugs you desire, and also hack into the lab, but potentially worth the risk.

It considers player freedom still. Under one leader, SYN may outright sell drug labs to other factions for a markup, allowing them to make drugs for their faction at a significant upstart cost. Or it may heavily controlled by only SYN families.
_____________
I still don't really know of a decent method for making the production process more involved. I've also not considered every drawback so there may be some issues with this kind of implementation. I'm dummy dummy not smart man but I'm trying to think from the perspective of my previous post and the idea that the market won't be flooded with them like FoM, so they can be a quite lucrative business but also an unstable one (much like drugs irl).
Tldr; but yeh let others hack to use it
 

John White

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Jul 23, 2018
148
Avalon Enterprises
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
Like in FoM, sometimes BoS would hire CMG/EC to gather the production materials needed for a drug batch because it could be cheaper and free up more time to have a corporation member do that part.
That actually happened?
It was never worth it for corp member to accept those contracts. I think it was like 10 UC difference at most between non CMG and CMG members prices for chems. Of course non CMG wanted to tap into that to lower the price floor for their product, so you would spend long ass time mining chems for like 5 UC profit, while you could have spent the same time, produced medkits and made 20-100 UC profit depending on market saturation.
Instead people just had alts, if they even bothered....
That brings me to another problem regarding corps and contracts.
Unless markets are super saturated with every possible item, selling raw materials are never worth it.
Honestly, I can't think of a decent way to address that problem....
Maybe I'm look at it too much from FoM perspective, but MR guys haven't shared too much about how they plan to handle economy atm.

Now back to Synd.
It's supposed to be a criminal organisation, correct?
So let's not make it more of a corp with different skins and a bit of spice. Mining chems, then instead of running to production terminal running to chem terminal, then instead of running to the market terminal actually meeting people. Where's the crime part?
Having to constantly fight CPC? Where's the organised crime? Where's the drug empire disguised as fast food chain?
A faction's identity shouldn't be just RP, but an actual necessity.
Production should have an option to involve heists and illegal deals.
If corp members do make contract with synd for drug production materials, it should be able to get that corp member, department or even the whole faction into trouble. Depending on CPC competency, of course.

Before moving forward, let's address a small misunderstanding:
Personally, I disagree with the idea of corps being a gate keeper to the drugs via the production materials.
To that I say/said:
Of course not all chems should be locked behind like that, but only the ones needed for creating higher tier, stronger, drugs.
To be more specific, most of them shouldn't.
This is just an event to bring out the organised crime part of the syndicate. It's an activity that requires some organisation from the members, has risks but high returns.
But I do agree that syndicate should have most control over drug production.
So let's take that approach, but add a bit more involvement with the process.
Last update revealed in world real estate.
Information we have gained here also said apartments will have kitchens.
So why not add an ability for synd members to use kitchens in in-world apartments to create drugs.
The drugs created this way will require basic chemicals accessible to everyone, but will result most basic illegal drugs.
We have also been told that factions will have ability to make changes to owned districts.
So with that ability synd clans can create a secret entrance to hidden refinery within their turf.
Such refineries should be able to create greater amounts of drugs in shorter times and ability to create higher purity products with greater effects.
Of not kitchens, nor refineries should have access to world storage system, requiring manual restocking. This will allow CPC chances to track down such enterprises, and require synd members to come up with creative ways to restock it.
Now chemicals used in production there are available to everyone, as they are used in cloth and food production.
Now there should also be chemicals that are only used in military tech, so there is no reason for it to be accessible to public, especially when it can be used to create drugs.
Corps could invest to acquire license for those. Synd can steal those, or try to make a deal, which would be harder as corp can face big fines and loose the license.
Synd can acquire and use those chemicals in their hidden refineries to create the best drugs in the game.
Maybe even allow those to be used in normal kitchens, resulting worse outcome than refineries.
Deployable labs can be used instead of the actual kitchens.

I think clan leadership having to come up with ways to defend their investment(refinery), is a good extra activity for HC.
It should be more fun faking out CPC instead of everyone just owning deployable terminal

Now why am I trying for corps to have part in the process?
Atm, it sounds like it's CPC/TDC vs synd/FoE and Corps against each other with mercs just selling themselves.
Need more ways to connect those camps.
Siphoning in FoM was boring. Most of the time it was just BoS ninja hacking until corps hacked it again. No actual confrontation.
 
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Wilbon

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Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
36
The Syndicate
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That actually happened?
It was never worth it for corp member to accept those contracts. I think it was like 10 UC difference at most between non CMG and CMG members prices for chems. Of course non CMG wanted to tap into that to lower the price floor for their product, so you would spend long ass time mining chems for like 5 UC profit, while you could have spent the same time, produced medkits and made 20-100 UC profit depending on market saturation.
Instead people just had alts, if they even bothered....
That brings me to another problem regarding corps and contracts.
Unless markets are super saturated with every possible item, selling raw materials are never worth it.
Honestly, I can't think of a decent way to address that problem....
Maybe I'm look at it too much from FoM perspective, but MR guys haven't shared too much about how they plan to handle economy atm.
Yes it did happen. But it heavily depended on the drug, as some that only really required things like chems and another cheap ingredient weren't worth it for because the premium you'd pay on top of the eco costs wasn't that much cheaper than doing it yourself. But in other drugs that required more ingredients and more refined ingredients, it could often be cheaper to hire a corp to gather it.

This was especially the case if BoS didn't own colonies with good drug resources. If most of the resources you need for a certain drug are on a colony that a corporation owns and the economic sanctions were high, it could be way more beneficial to just hire that faction to source your resources than to try to do it yourself.

It was also useful in times of war when sitting on a colony eco-afking wasn't really a possibility but having a corp gather supplies was worth it. Cutting out the mining and refining processes in the entire production process made it a lot faster and simpler to produce drugs when time and availability were important.

5 UC profit per chem on a 2000 chem mining contract is still 10K profit. Sure other productions were more lucrative, but there's still profit to be made and corporations exist quite literally to take eco contracts and make money. And there is a lot more room here for eco contracts to be profitable as we have a chance to avoid the economy of FoM.

Now back to Synd.
It's supposed to be a criminal organisation, correct?
So let's not make it more of a corp with different skins and a bit of spice. Mining chems, then instead of running to production terminal running to chem terminal, then instead of running to the market terminal actually meeting people. Where's the crime part?
Having to constantly fight CPC? Where's the organised crime? Where's the drug empire disguised as fast food chain?
A faction's identity shouldn't be just RP, but an actual necessity.
Production should have an option to involve heists and illegal deals.
If corp members do make contract with synd for drug production materials, it should be able to get that corp member, department or even the whole faction into trouble. Depending on CPC competency, of course.
The crime part is in everything you're doing. Producing drugs is illegal. Carrying and possessing drugs in storage is illegal. Selling drugs is illegal. The only legal element of it is the acquisition of the raw materials used to make the drugs.

Who said anything about organized crime? I think you're presuming what the faction is about. The Syndicate is a confederation of gangs and that's it. While there is an overarching code and gangs (families) can come together when The Syndicate (the confederation) needs it, most are to operate to their own accord. It's up to the families to decide how organized they'll be run. It's up to the families themselves if they want the 'drug empire disguised as a fast food chain' -- which isn't something prevented by this system.

> A faction's identity shouldn't be just about RP, but an actual necessity.
> Production should have an option to involve heist and illegal deals.


This is contradicting. The point of SYN being the gatekeepers of drugs is about their identity. They're a necessary part of the world because they are the ones in control of the drugs in the economy. Who gets access, how much gets made, and what drugs are available. They shouldn't be forced to roleplay robbing dudes or making shady deals with corporations to maintain their identity. Their identity should be in their control.

I agree, it should be possible for a corp member and their associates to get into trouble, and that is something that depends on CPC competency. But all of that is still possible and wouldn't be different if SYN had to get chems from corps versus if they could get them themselves. Because unless chems were illegal, it isn't illegal to make these deals.

Before moving forward, let's address a small misunderstanding:

To that I say/said:

To be more specific, most of them shouldn't.
This is just an event to bring out the organised crime part of the syndicate. It's an activity that requires some organisation from the members, has risks but high returns.
But I do agree that syndicate should have most control over drug production.
So let's take that approach, but add a bit more involvement with the process.
Last update revealed in world real estate.
Information we have gained here also said apartments will have kitchens.
So why not add an ability for synd members to use kitchens in in-world apartments to create drugs.
The drugs created this way will require basic chemicals accessible to everyone, but will result most basic illegal drugs.
We have also been told that factions will have ability to make changes to owned districts.
So with that ability synd clans can create a secret entrance to hidden refinery within their turf.
Such refineries should be able to create greater amounts of drugs in shorter times and ability to create higher purity products with greater effects.
Of not kitchens, nor refineries should have access to world storage system, requiring manual restocking. This will allow CPC chances to track down such enterprises, and require synd members to come up with creative ways to restock it.
Now chemicals used in production there are available to everyone, as they are used in cloth and food production.
Now there should also be chemicals that are only used in military tech, so there is no reason for it to be accessible to public, especially when it can be used to create drugs.
Corps could invest to acquire license for those. Synd can steal those, or try to make a deal, which would be harder as corp can face big fines and loose the license.
Synd can acquire and use those chemicals in their hidden refineries to create the best drugs in the game.
Maybe even allow those to be used in normal kitchens, resulting worse outcome than refineries.
Deployable labs can be used instead of the actual kitchens.
I agree, there should be a more interactive way to make drugs that are different in terms of grade or quality -- one way is the acquisition of high-end chems. There are no qualms with that, but I don't agree that corporations should be the only way to access high-end chems to produce high-end drugs and force SYN to be RP lords and reliant on other factions by forcing their hand this way. SYN is not all about organized crime and it's about the freedom to decide what the best way to acquire the resources and control the drug economy.

If that means striking a deal for the chems with a corporation, so be it. If that means investing in whatever is needed (license, refinery, something) to get the high-end chems, so be it. If it means extortion/bribery/other criminal methods to get chems, so be it.

I think clan leadership having to come up with ways to defend their investment(refinery), is a good extra activity for HC.
It should be more fun faking out CPC instead of everyone just owning deployable terminal
Coming up ways to defend your investment is the point of the deployable. If you put it in public, you're at risk of it being ninja'd so you're best to find a way to keep it defended. If you want to fake out CPC, you can put it in a territory you don't actively use or put it in an apartment and make it harder for them to find it.

Everyone owning a deployable terminal is not the guaranteed case. If the terminal originates from SYN high command, then its up to them to determine who has access. That can be almost no-one having access to a lot of people having access. But that's an element of freedom for the SYN leaders to decide.

Now why am I trying for corps to have part in the process?
Atm, it sounds like it's CPC/TDC vs synd/FoE and Corps against each other with mercs just selling themselves.
Need more ways to connect those camps.
Siphoning in FoM was boring. Most of the time it was just BoS ninja hacking until corps hacked it again. No actual confrontation.
Siphoning is beyond the point of this topic.

To recap: I 100% agree that there should be compelling reasons for SYN to use corps in the process of making drugs. But I disagree that it should be required to do so. If you want to speak about SYN maintaining their identity and being a necessity, that means they should be the only ones who don't have to rely on anyone else to create the drugs. Everyone else should have to rely on another party to do it (at minimum: going through SYN to acquire a drug lab or stealing one).

There should still be a compelling reason for SYN to work with other factions. Corps should have an advantage over SYN in acquiring the resources and it should honestly be ideal to go to a corp for the chems versus getting them yourself. But politics can be a factor on if that is worth it or if the SYN should get them themselves.
 

John White

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Yes it did happen. But it heavily depended on the drug, as some that only really required things like chems and another cheap ingredient weren't worth it for because the premium you'd pay on top of the eco costs wasn't that much cheaper than doing it yourself. But in other drugs that required more ingredients and more refined ingredients, it could often be cheaper to hire a corp to gather it.
You needed other stuff than chems?
I only remember chems and codes. Damn, memory troubles in my age...

As for corps and synd. Synd doesn't rely on corps. They aren't forced into making any deals, they can just steal from the corp.
I'm just arguing that as criminal organisation, Synd should rely on criminal methods to secure their income.
Yes, drugs are illegal, but, it's just ecoing... Idk how to say it better, it's not criminal enough?
It's like the higher tier drug you make the more criminal activities you need to do.
Like lower tier you only need to worry about CPC, med tier you need to also worry about other families, high tier - CPC, families, Corps.


5 UC profit per chem on a 2000 chem mining contract is still 10K profit. Sure other productions were more lucrative, but there's still profit to be made and corporations exist quite literally to take eco contracts and make money. And there is a lot more room here for eco contracts to be profitable as we have a chance to avoid the economy of FoM.
2k chems would have taken a long ass time, 10k is soooo not worth it, lol.
Corps exist to make money. If contract is lucrative sure it can be done, but raw mat contracts rarely are.
If you want to fake out CPC, you can put it in a territory you don't actively use
That will just result in CPC destroying the deployable and you loosing money you invested into acquiring it...

If that means investing in whatever is needed (license, refinery, something) to get the high-end chems, so be it.
Actually that is a good idea, refinery I mean. If synd can set up a secret chem lab, they can set up secret refinery for those chems as well, for extra cost and risk of loosing more, and prob requiring extra territory for that.



To sum up:
Corps won't prevent synd from acquiring chemicals. It will just require organised criminal activity to do it.
It will just allow families an option to run higher risk, higher reward organised operations.
If a family chooses to just have all members have their own kitchens that is ok too.
 
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Wilbon

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You needed other stuff than chems?
I only remember chems and codes. Damn, memory troubles in my age...
Chems and chem subs were the most needed, but IIRC you needed water and organic subs for certain drugs as well at one point. It was nothing like ecoing any other item in the game in terms of requirements but I recall it being a bit more than chem subs at certain times and there being occasional benefits to going through a corp (see my last post for more).

As for corps and synd. Synd doesn't rely on corps. They aren't forced into making any deals, they can just steal from the corp.
I'm just arguing that as criminal organisation, Synd should rely on criminal methods to secure their income.
Yes, drugs are illegal, but, it's just ecoing... Idk how to say it better, it's not criminal enough?
It's like the higher tier drug you make the more criminal activities you need to do.
Like lower tier you only need to worry about CPC, med tier you need to also worry about other families, high tier - CPC, families, Corps.
The entire act of producing the drugs is a criminal act. Producing and selling drugs is in itself a criminal method to secure your income. It's not wanted by the government and as such illegal to do, but it's done.

There is an ecoing component to it, but unless we did a complete 180 and made it so SYN just bought drugs from an NPC, there has to be an ecoing component to the system at some point to get those drugs into the game and start having them spread to others.

There shouldn't be some RPG thing of low tier and cops are your threat, mid tier adds families, and high tier adds corps. Everyone at every level should have something to gain by opposing SYN drug labs and being involved with the process, regardless of what's in it and what grade things are. It's doesn't need to be that linear. Whether you have a C1 drug in your lab or a C3 drug in your lab, CPC should want to raid it to stop drugs at all and other factions/families should want to take it for themselves. Corps should want to work with SYN to supply them with the materials as then they will get the money used for SYN to make the drugs.

2k chems would have taken a long ass time, 10k is soooo not worth it, lol.
Corps exist to make money. If contract is lucrative sure it can be done, but raw mat contracts rarely are.
Sort of true, but money is money and lower/newer peeps may be more inclined to take a contract like that if they're not in a position to take a larger more lucrative contract. For instance, not having all the required pmods and stockpile of mats for one contract versus a simpler one.

Plus, you got to consider that although we're referencing FoM's shortcomings, MR will be a new game. The development team clearly wants to avoid the economy pitfalls of FoM and part of that is making economic contracts more lucrative and giving corps a bigger purpose in the world. Sadly in FoM even though corps had a purpose, they could have been better. So many times where BoS was ecoing their own gear because it was feasible, and if anything SYN should really want to outsource to corps to fill their gear pools.

That will just result in CPC destroying the deployable and you loosing money you invested into acquiring it...
Exactly, which is the point. Which gives as you said, something extra for HC to think about as they gotta defend their labs or create a system to avoid them getting destroyed by CPC. This means drug labs are best somewhere hidden behind locked barriers and unknown to most to avoid leaks and having an expensive lab raided and lost with everything in it stolen or destroyed.

Plus, CPC (or anyone) can also hack it, steal the lab, and try to extort SYN by selling it back to them, should they desire. Or they can just use it to produce their own drugs.

Actually that is a good idea, refinery I mean. If synd can set up a secret chem lab, they can set up secret refinery for those chems as well, for extra cost and risk of loosing more, and prob requiring extra territory for that.
Agreed. But doing all this for SYN should be less ideal than going through a corp. It should be the less favorable of option between the two but politics and other factors may push for SYN to keep things in-house rather than use a corp.

To sum up:
Corps won't prevent synd from acquiring chemicals. It will just require organised criminal activity to do it.
It will just allow families an option to run higher risk, higher reward organised operations.
If a family chooses to just have all members have their own kitchens that is ok too.
SYN should have the freedom to control the drug production and flow as to what they think is feasible, regardless of the other factions. Forcing SYN to go through other factions is taking away of that point you mention: faction necessity.

The faction responsible for a certain thing shouldn't be forced to go through other factions to do it. The CPC isn't forced to go through corps to arrest suspects, so why should SYN be forced to go through corps to produce drugs? If anything, everyone else should be forced to go through SYN to do what SYN can do on their own.

Of the two major families that have been built so far, one of them operates more organized and the other operates more loosely. By not forcing them to go through a corp, more options are available for them to flourish. Doing it yourself can be riskier and more expensive, but not require the middle-man of the corp. Leaves it all up to whatever is feasible for the gangs and how they wish to operate. And positions corporations to be a valuable asset to drug production.
 

John White

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There shouldn't be some RPG thing of low tier and cops are your threat, mid tier adds families, and high tier adds corps. Everyone at every level should have something to gain by opposing SYN drug labs and being involved with the process, regardless of what's in it and what grade things are. It's doesn't need to be that linear. Whether you have a C1 drug in your lab or a C3 drug in your lab, CPC should want to raid it to stop drugs at all and other factions/families should want to take it for themselves. Corps should want to work with SYN to supply them with the materials as then they will get the money used for SYN to make the drugs.
CPC and families will be a problem on all levels.
But honestly corps have no reason to get involved with synd.
Yes, newer members might supply synd with chems until they get funds to operate their own enterprise. Corps are rich, they can just buy the product off you if they so need. There is no reason for armed conflict. (drug related)



Exactly, which is the point. Which gives as you said, something extra for HC to think about as they gotta defend their labs or create a system to avoid them getting destroyed by CPC. This means drug labs are best somewhere hidden behind locked barriers and unknown to most to avoid leaks and having an expensive lab raided and lost with everything in it stolen or destroyed.

Plus, CPC (or anyone) can also hack it, steal the lab, and try to extort SYN by selling it back to them, should they desire. Or they can just use it to produce their own drugs.
You said you can put terminal in unused territory to get CPC of your trail.
I said they will just kill the terminal and you will loose money without achieving much.
Yes, it's best when you hide the drug production.....



SYN should have the freedom to control the drug production and flow as to what they think is feasible, regardless of the other factions. Forcing SYN to go through other factions is taking away of that point you mention: faction necessity.

The faction responsible for a certain thing shouldn't be forced to go through other factions to do it. The CPC isn't forced to go through corps to arrest suspects, so why should SYN be forced to go through corps to produce drugs? If anything, everyone else should be forced to go through SYN to do what SYN can do on their own.

Of the two major families that have been built so far, one of them operates more organized and the other operates more loosely. By not forcing them to go through a corp, more options are available for them to flourish. Doing it yourself can be riskier and more expensive, but not require the middle-man of the corp. Leaves it all up to whatever is feasible for the gangs and how they wish to operate. And positions corporations to be a valuable asset to drug production.
CPC is absolutely forced to go through corps to arrest suspect.
Where do you think all their gear and ammunition comes from?

As I understand the goal it to have all faction have meaningful interactions, and you want to isolate synd.
Every faction should absolutely be influenced by happenings in others.

You say there are two families who have different level of organisation. That's great! They can totally fill different parts of the market. If one or the other starts taking bigger shares, that's great, there's your conflict, the family threat part.
With synd operated refineries, there is no reliance on corps that you are so afraid of. (not there was much of it to begin with)
 
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Wilbon

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CPC and families will be a problem on all levels.
But honestly corps have no reason to get involved with synd.
Yes, newer members might supply synd with chems until they get funds to operate their own enterprise. Corps are rich, they can just buy the product off you if they so need. There is no reason for armed conflict. (drug related)
There are two really good reasons to get involved with SYN outside a drug-buyer perspective:

1.) If SYN leadership allows it, a corp could buy their own labs from SYN. At that point, they'll be able produce their own drugs cheaper than buying them.

2.) Selling the chems to SYN. If it's cheaper for corps to obtain them than it is for SYN to, there's reason for a trade deal to work out. Corps acquire all the chems and sell it to SYN, they can make their money back and a profit. Versus SYN acquiring themselves and at most the corp getting a tax from territory use.

Corps have reason to get involved with SYN on a drug-related conflict basis, but they may choose not to. It's really up to their leadership to decide.

You said you can put terminal in unused territory to get CPC of your trail.
I said they will just kill the terminal and you will loose money without achieving much.
Yes, it's best when you hide the drug production.....
Keep note that this 'unused territory' refers to a territory owned by the lab owner, just isn't their main hangout spot. If you were looking for BoS on a normal day, a lot of the time you'd find them in CD even though we had a drug lab on Berlin.

It's an option for SYN leaders to do, if they want to put the lab somewhere less common than in the heart of where they all are, they can. But that is the risk, if they're not there to see it, it may be ninja'd and destroyed and end up costing them. It's up to the lab owners to decide what they think the best course of action for their labs are. We're not here to build the strategy for SYN on how and where to use labs, but give them them options and leave it up to them.

CPC is absolutely forced to go through corps to arrest suspect.
Where do you think all their gear and ammunition comes from?
Except if they have their own ecoers that can do it themselves? Numerous times the gear stockpiles for LED and BoS were sorted by members of the faction self-producing. In fact, BoS used to have a department exclusively for that purpose.

CPC isn't forced to use corps, but it's cheaper. SYN isn't forced to use corps, but it's cheaper.

As I understand the goal it to have all faction have meaningful interactions, and you want to isolate synd.
Every faction should absolutely be influenced by happenings in others.
It's not about isolation, it's about maintaining faction necessity and identity, something you preached about 3 posts ago. The meaningful interactions are still there and will always be there because all the factions are player driven. Factions will be influenced by the happenings in others.

But there's absolutely no reason to force corps to have their hand into everything versus giving every faction options and the freedom to decide what path they want to take. Whether they do or don't want to use corps, that should be exclusively the decision of SYN and not something forced by game mechanics by making the chems have to be obtained through corps (regardless if it's done legally or illegally).

You say there are two families who have different level of organisation. That's great! They can totally fill different parts of the market. If one or the other starts taking bigger shares, that's great, there's your conflict, the family threat part.
With synd operated refineries, there is no reliance on corps that you are so afraid of. (not there was much of it to begin with)
The point of the two families is to illustrate that this organized crime roleplay thing you're pushing for is a misunderstanding of how SYN will be internally. The internal operation of families will be as organized or as loose as their individual leadership decides and they need not to be forced into operating as organized crime to acquire chems to sell drugs if they don't want to be that organized.

If SYN chooses to have their own refineries, correct. But if properly balanced, a SYN operated refinery could be a more significant and risky investment compared to utilizing corporations, who may already even have a refinery and operate at lower base costs. Either way, it leaves them with options.

You want corps to be a required part of the process for SYN to produce drugs, and they shouldn't be. There should be pros and cons to using them but completely optional and avoidable.
 

John White

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1.) If SYN leadership allows it, a corp could buy their own labs from SYN. At that point, they'll be able produce their own drugs cheaper than buying them.
Isn't that just hurting your own business?

2.) Selling the chems to SYN. If it's cheaper for corps to obtain them than it is for SYN to, there's reason for a trade deal to work out. Corps acquire all the chems and sell it to SYN, they can make their money back and a profit. Versus SYN acquiring themselves and at most the corp getting a tax from territory use.
Like we both already said, yes, new members might find it lucrative.

Corps have reason to get involved with SYN on a drug-related conflict basis, but they may choose not to. It's really up to their leadership to decide.
How do you imagine that?
Corp going in seizing synd terminals and starting to make all the drugs themselves?

It's dumb, and likely counterproductive, but sure it can be done...
As I'm sure corps will have their hands full with their own things to try to take over clan's jobs. Which thinking about it, shouldn't really be possible, but sure is a fun possibility lol.

You want corps to be a required part of the process for SYN to produce drugs, and they shouldn't be. There should be pros and cons to using them but completely optional and avoidable.
Idk where you read that. You see what you want to see.
This is counterproductive.
 
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Egroeg

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Isn't that just hurting your own business?
Not necessarily. I can see Syndicate selling a factory or rights to produce to a faction as a quick money boost. Or let's say lots of members dont have a lot if AE customers for whatever reason, so selling a factory for like 1mil uc would allow us to finally profit from a not so big customer and allows you guys to make your money's worth. It's also safe as we get total profit with basically no risk.


How do you imagine that?
Corp going in seizing synd terminals and starting to make all the drugs themselves?

It's dumb, and likely counterproductive, but sure it can be done...
As I'm sure corps will have their hands full with their own things to try to take over clan's jobs. Which thinking about it, shouldn't really be possible, but sure is a fun possibility lol.
Maybe if Syndicate and AE are having beef or an economic sanction so yall cant buy drugs but you're being stomped bu drug users so maybe you want to steal a factory to make your own.

But as Will has been trying to state and from my comment above in reply to your other question, Syndicate would control the drug flow which is a big part of our criminal identity. Whether its selling rights off for yall to produce or how we restrict how the factories are made, placed, guarded within our own.


Idk where you read that. You see what you want to see.
This is counterproductive.
He read that from you saying Syndicate would NEED to go to a Corp for certain chems to produce drugs, therefore making them a required process for drugs.
 

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This thread is quite beefy and has a lot of nice implementations, we'll be focusing on strictly on gameplay stuff for the next developer's update and the whole drug content seems to have a lot of interest, from multiple factions.
 

John White

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Not necessarily. I can see Syndicate selling a factory or rights to produce to a faction as a quick money boost. Or let's say lots of members dont have a lot if AE customers for whatever reason, so selling a factory for like 1mil uc would allow us to finally profit from a not so big customer and allows you guys to make your money's worth. It's also safe as we get total profit with basically no risk.
Rights? You are a criminal organisation, I don't think you can legally license drug production to another faction.
If corp does get a factory from you guys and since corps can get materials for drugs cheaper you guys get a competition you can't win against, as crops will have smaller price floor. So you will have to find and destroy that factory, or maybe leak it to CPC for them to do it.
Now back to absurdity. If you don't have a lot of AE costumers, that means AE doesn't want drugs, why in the god's name would AE buy an illegal factory that can hurt their relations with the union for 1 mill uc?
Well I guess it's possible to make deal with CPC, but then synd is really out of business until they destroy that factory(s).


But as Will has been trying to state and from my comment above in reply to your other question, Syndicate would control the drug flow which is a big part of our criminal identity. Whether its selling rights off for yall to produce or how we restrict how the factories are made, placed, guarded within our own.
And what's preventing synd from controlling the drug flow again?
I don't think my later suggestions do that...


He read that from you saying Syndicate would NEED to go to a Corp for certain chems to produce drugs, therefore making them a required process for drugs.
I said synd operated refineries is a great idea, thus synd doesn't need to go to corp for chems...
 

Wilbon

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Rights? You are a criminal organisation, I don't think you can legally license drug production to another faction.
Nobody said legal rights, it's not even relevant. When SYN are the ones that control who can make drugs, they can sell other factions the ability to do the same, if they so choose.

If corp does get a factory from you guys and since corps can get materials for drugs cheaper you guys get a competition you can't win against, as crops will have smaller price floor. So you will have to find and destroy that factory, or maybe leak it to CPC for them to do it.

Now back to absurdity. If you don't have a lot of AE costumers, that means AE doesn't want drugs, why in the god's name would AE buy an illegal factory that can hurt their relations with the union for 1 mill uc?

Well I guess it's possible to make deal with CPC, but then synd is really out of business until they destroy that factory(s).
If they can buy a factory from SYN, it probably wouldn't hurt their relations seeing as SYN was okay with them having the factory enough to sell them. Some factions may not even sell the drugs they produce and may keep it for themselves so they have access to drugs cheaper. Afterall, drug dealing is still illegal and if labs are expensive, is it worth the risk for a corp to have their investment shut down by CPC to end up being a costly loss?

Either way, you're inherently focusing way too hard on how the drug production meta will be, something that is unknown to any of us this early in development. The point of the suggestion is not to theorycraft how faction politics will be and if certain options are more viable than others in a game that will include player freedom and politics, but to provide the ideas for a fundamental framework to drug producing that will enlist player freedom and mesh well with the game.

At the end of the day, it's up to SYN's leaders to figure out how they'd think would be best for the confederation to manage the drug producing and dealing aspect of the game, seeing as it's their thing, within the constraints of the game's mechanics as decided by the development.

And what's preventing synd from controlling the drug flow again?
I don't think my later suggestions do that...
That's the point and I think we're mostly in agreement here. As long as corps cant serve as gatekeepers, meaning, as long as they aren't required in the drug producing process, then we're on the same page. But the original idea of a corp being necessary for SYN to do the thing they're based on is just silly. There's more restrictions than forcing every group/faction to be intertwined like that than there is gains.