Community Input: Territories, Crime, and Drug Creation

Chip Lawrie

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With the upcoming sprint, we here at Far Frontiers are going to be working on some fairly important mechanics for those of you on the wrong (and right) side of Union Law so we thought we'd talk about what our current plans are and ask for your input on what you'd like to see.

Territories:

Union City has been divided into several small territories. At the current time, every faction can claim them but as we expand the number of colonies in the game we'll be restricting these smaller territories to Syndicate Gangs (and maybe FoE) and creating colonial government offices for corporations and the TU to hold as colony owners and some 'corporate territories' that will be focused around particular services for corporations to own and make money.

How would you as players like to see the gang territories work mechanically? Aare these Epeen Points (I have the biggest turf), social dynamic indicators (don't commit a crime in my gang's turf or I'll cut you) or something with more mechanical features - or indeed a mixture of all of these?

Colony Control and Corporate Territories while not necessarily related to 'crime' per se are worth thinking about so how would you see those working?


Crime:

In MR we intend for there to be a wide variety of crimes and for the player government to be able to adjust the legality of substances and the punishments for illegal substances and actions, within certain restrictions. Obviously, the mechanics for drugs (see below) will play into this but so far there are a few ideas about crime and reasons for CPC and the Corps to be at least somewhat anti-crime.

Obviously, certain acts - such as murder will be illegal and will gain you PP, we're going to modify the PP gained from killing with some situational modifiers; they shoot at you, you don't get PP for killing them; you're at war, you get less PP for killing them, etc.

We want to tie this into investigation somehow - maybe less so on the inner colonies (where security drones and cameras are ubiquitous) but more so in the Frontier where Union Law runs thin - this can be done through various 'forensics' tools or implants etc. Investigation mechanics, in particular, can be useful for burglaries and break-ins where there isn't a clone witness saying 'officer this is the guy who shot me' - disguise etc may also play a part. We want successful criminals to get away with it, but we also want to provide a challenge for criminals and engaging gameplay for investigators.

Now, why would CPC and more importantly the Corps/Government want to stop crime - well criminal acts affect a corporate territory's (or maybe colony's) crime rate which affects the amount of tax money corps can get from the territory/colony. CPC doing their job (reducing crime) means more money for the corps - which means the corps don't necessarily want weak Agencies. How the crime rate goes down is up for debate - but a mixture of overtime and effecting arrests will probably work.

The last thing I want to talk about in the crime section is restricted items certain items (like illegal drugs) it makes sense to have as illegal for everyone but others the government might want to allow varying levels of restriction such as for heavy weapons. At this point in time, there are intended to be five levels of legality - unrestricted, licenced (requires a permit from a player judge), paramilitary (Corpsec and Mercs), agency (CPC and TDC) and illegal. Certain items are always unrestricted (pistols, basic armour, food etc) certain items are always illegal (illegal drugs) but the government should have the ability to alter some legalities (within reason).

Drug Production:

Taking several of your suggestions from the food, chems and drugs thread we've decided to iterate on our design. Drugs are divided into two types, legal and illegal. Legal drugs are produced in a pharmaceutical lab which is a terminal (much like a mining or production terminal), while illegal drugs are made in a deployable drugs lab. The processes for creating drugs are similar whether for illegal or legal drugs and will be an interactive experience where monitoring heat and mixing speeds will be important.

Pharmaceutical labs can handle mass production, albeit of weaker effect, narrowly defined drugs. Failure when mixing these drugs simply means a loss of time and some resources as the batch fails.

Drugs labs can't handle mass production but the items they produce have a much greater effect and a much wider scope for experimentation - however, failure when mixing illegal drugs or while experimenting carries a risk of explosion altering the risk vs reward equation somewhat.

Drug labs are available as exclusives for Syndicate Gangs who specialise down the drugs routes (rather than the cybercrime or burglary routes) though ofc they can sell them to other groups and individuals.
 
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LordAdder

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In terms of territory, maybe we should have different awards depending on what kind of sector and how many you control. For example, you can use the amount of territory you have as something like "Faction prestige" which means that since you control more land, you are more present in the average player's gametime. Idk how far this would go, but I guess you could have the prestige be a currency you can cash in to improve your faction. Maybe lock certain bases or things behind that so that factions can have a reason to take more territory.

(This of course, can be exploited and if one faction becomes a monopoly, then it should have some debuffs, maybe faulty armor for an over extended faction or some shit.)

If you control sectors with markets or resources, your faction can get a cut of the profits. The above mentioned prestige would be for sectors that don't have the value of having a market or something.

As for Crime and Drug production, I'll leave that to the mooks who are going to be dealing with it more heavily
 
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Wilbon

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There should definitely be reasons for the clans/gangs to want to collect territories more than for e-peen and social elements. At minimum, FoE and every SYN family will want somewhere to be their own home. But there should definitely be mechanical elements to gain by owning the territories, and reason for these groups to want to have as many territories as they can nail down.

It'll take some time to brainstorm some of the mechanics but one that I read in a previous thread that might be a decent idea is allowing territories to have their connection to the PP network be disabled. I.E if a SYN family owns a territory not only can they do the..

social dynamic indicators (don't commit a crime in my gang's turf or I'll cut you)

thing but also if they whack you they won't be given PP even if they're the aggressor and it was a murder. In that case, CPC may be even more inclined to investigate that murder than one in territory they control because at least in a territory with a PP network intact, the people committing a crime is still getting PP automatically for it and theoretically will be arrested at one point or another3.. But a crime in this lawless territory is more important to investigate because that person won't automatically be 'charged' for their crime and need to be manually charged at the completion of the investigation.
____________________________
Which, bringing it to investigation topic: investigation tools would be a really good thing but I suspect challenging in some ways. I don't see shell casings being a factor so there'd need to be some good methods/tools produced so cops can actually investigate things and equally tools so that criminals can take steps to avoid evidence being available to cops. Planning a crime should have less of an evidence trail than doing something in the heat of the moment. CPC probably have a better idea on the specifics.

But at the very least there should definitely be some way for CPC to impose PP onto someone for a crime. Perhaps going through a player-judge with enough evidence can grant them a warrant, which will then apply the PP to the criminal according to the appropriate amount designated for the crimes proven, and then CPC can have their warrant execution team hunt those types of warrants.
 
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Joshua Jones

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Just some quick ideas I had on the matter.

Territories
  1. The Syndicate and FoE should be able to apply graffiti to the territory if they wish to make a statement.
  2. -Bonus points for "families" to be able to put their own branding on.
  3. Holding a specific set of territories grants the benefit of owning a "District" which comes with its own extra bonuses, features or benefits eg. New hidden paths for drug smuggling, a secure production area, a bonus % to mining, a reduction in market taxes, the ability to rent real world (Not instanced) houses to players.
  4. All territories should be able to be upgraded, which apply not just bonuses, or new features but also visually being different. For CPC it may make the area look more secure, for the corps more industrialized, for syndicate more gang-y.
  5. TU Should have access to owning at least 1 territory on every colony. This can act as a FOB or "Police Station" for the TU. However only 1 can be present at the time, so a decision needs to be made on whether the CPC or TDC is needed.

Why do non TU factions want police.

  1. Syndicate owned territories will apply a corruption stat to the colony. This will apply a % reduction on all income on that colony going directly in a % form to each "Family" who own a territory eg. "La Bosso Familia" own 2/5 territories on a 10% corruption stat = 40% of the 10% of income being "corrupted" goes to them.
  2. This corruption will increase on the basis of increased drug production, and illegal activities occurring in the territory.
  3. This corruption stack can be reduced but never completely removed by having CPC patrol the area. Actions can contribute to a reduction through numerous ways eg. Time spent in area, arrests made in area, scans performed, etc
  4. This corruption stat can be increased by Syndicate investing and upgrading their territories on said colony if they pick the upgrade path into corruption". But only ever to a max of 25%
  5. I like Will's idea of being able to turn off the PP network on Earth/Inner colonies. Basically making these areas crime free zones. This could drastically increase the corruption % of the colony.

I thought about letting the Syndicate decide whether they could apply or choose not to apply the corruption. But I think by forcing the Syndicate to have to siphon funds it creates more content than if they didn't.

I imagine every colony having a certain % of corruption. More so on colonies further out from the inner colonies.

  1. FoE owned territories will apply a similar stat causing a siphon of funds, however this has no cap.
  2. Furthermore these siphoning of funds is an unseen stat. Investigation is required to see how the money is being siphoned off and how much of it.
  3. You can not reduce any of these stats. Only the CPC can discover if a colony is being siphoned at the hands of the FoE. (You could allow the corps to do it at extreme cost for balancing reasons)

The idea here is that the FoE is an enemy to all corps and TU factions. By only allowing the CPC to discover siphoning activities from the FoE it incentives corps to want CPC on the area. Not only as a preemptive measure (Patrols can spot FoE members) but as a reactionary measure.
 

Chip Lawrie

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I should make clear that while Union City is currently divided into gang territories the corporate territory system is intended to be quite different. Corporate territories are much larger and play a part in our colony takeover system (which synd mercs, and FoE can’t do).

The corruption/siphoning does sound interesting. Though we intended siphoning to be an active rather than passive activity.
 

LordAdder

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I should make clear that while Union City is currently divided into gang territories the corporate territory system is intended to be quite different. Corporate territories are much larger and play a part in our colony takeover system (which synd mercs, and FoE can’t do).

The corruption/siphoning does sound interesting. Though we intended siphoning to be an active rather than passive activity.
Does that mean that Synd, Mercs, and FoE can't control whole worlds? Or am I misreading that?
 

Chip Lawrie

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Does that mean that Synd, Mercs, and FoE can't control whole worlds? Or am I misreading that?

That is exactly what it means yes.
 

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Rian Felix

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Gang control of a territory
- producing drugs/illegal items create penalty points (something like CPC tracking them down)
- owning a territory as a gang would remove any accumilation of penalty points. Drugs/murder etc etc
 

Shiro Ryoshi

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I liked the corruption idea.
Maybe have it affect agencies income only, and have active siphoning for corp districts.
Have something similar for FoE, but instead affecting agencies income have it affect corp production speed. Call it something like revolutionary support. People refuse to work for corps and production speed suffers. As corp takes debuffs, FoE will get bonuses.
Maybe both synd and FoE can affect both agencies and corps, but disproportionately, with FoE having more affect on corps, while synd on Agencies.
While both corruption and revolutionary support can be gained by preforming various activities, it will naturally decay. Of course other factions can actively decrease them. Owning a territory will stop the decay, on certain level. Like not owning any territory it will decay to 0, owning one it can only decay to 10, etc.

Would be nice to see actual investigation and information gathering.
Members of other factions won't see who the territory belongs to. Not even talking about the gang or sect, people shouldn't even know if it's FoE or Synd. Give HC ability to set those according to information they gather. Factions can have informants or just make conclusions depending on various factors.
Of course sects or gangs can decide to broadcast that they are the owners, and have it show up for anyone that enters the area, along with their rules.

Territory owning bonuses can include something like PP assignment failure for Synd owned territories. Like if Synd owns a territory there is 25% chance PP won't be assigned, 50% chance CPC will be tasked to investigate, and 25% chance just working normally. Chance of PP assignment failure can raise with increase corruption and adjacent synd controlled areas.

As for FoE, their districts are kind of the rebel districts, so FoE will probably thoroughly get rid of all Union monitoring equipment, and as support for FoE is high here people are unlikely to report crime to CPC. So instead of assigning PP, crime committed in this area will 90% reported to FoE. FoE members will then get a mission to lynch the criminal for some support bonus. What counts as crimes can be decided by the owner of the area. So faction members can just get lynched for being part of their faction and trespassing.

For FoE income, it should come from donations, which would depend on their support and prosperity of the colony. At the end of every cycle FoE will get random amount of UC from the range that corresponds to their support. For example they have 10 support, they will get random amount of UC ranging from 10k to 50k. At 50 support they will get random amount from range 50k to 250k, etc.

There can be some interactions between corruption and FoE support.

As for siphoning both synd and FoE should be able to do it. Funds will be siphoned from corps income. Depending on how well it was executed, it can be silent, delayed alarm, alarm, fail. If silent there will be no notification that funds are siphoned but corp member can manually calculate and find inconsistencies. Alarm will inform CPC and corps, after which gangs can decide if they want to hold their position and fight to siphon some more or withdraw right away, delayed one will give them some more time. Even if they withdraw right away, CPC will be investigating. Fail, they won't siphon anything at all, and have a chance of sounding the alarm.


I think it is necessary to define what role TDC is to play in all this. To prevent TDC being always by CPC side, maybe define in which situations they can interfere, or better yet, have some kind of downside for agencies for calling TDC. Maybe some kind of pacification timer, during there is no tax collection. If TDC is called repeatedly to interfere on a colony this timer increases.

Now for corpsec:
I remember Avalon Knights being founded because we were unimpressed with agencies results. So maybe allow CorpSec to handle law enforcement to a certain degree. Different corps secs can have their own bonuses. For example:
Avalon Knights may arrest criminal and deliver them to CPC for big amount of corruption and FoE support reduction (less than CPC though), NSM can arrest and transform criminals into slaves, slightly boosting their production on the colony, OZ's corpsec can just kill criminals instead of arresting.
Corps being able to arrest does feel a bit too much and will likely hurt CPC's feelings. It would be good for corpsecs being able to handle synd and FoE influence in some way though, and having factional differences in ways to handle things would be great.
Speaking of corpsec and crime reduction, maybe have contracts for mercs to do the same.


So I remember bio mentioning that there will be a lot of money sinks in the game, so I'm guessing a lot of money will be leaving the economy through upkeep costs and such. What if, instead of just removing this money we pool it and use it as income for these gang districts. So part of agencies income corruption and FoE donations will come from this pool, instead of being passive siphon. You can see this as money corps/factions pay NPCs for maintaining and producing their stuff, which is then is spent in these lower districts. Being paid as protection money for synd, as taxes for agencies or as donations to FoE after being fed up with how unfair the world is.

Maybe allow player government to set taxes for corps and these areas separately. Higher taxes for gang districts can lower prosperity leading to overall lower income in the long run.

Crimes:
Being living, breathing member of syndicate or FoE.
Open carry without a license.
Insulting/threatening an officer.
Impeding investigation/Obstruction of Justice.
Hacking.
Stealing.
Killing.
Extortion and anti-government propaganda (referring to Synd and FoE missions, respectively.)
Production, distribution and use of illegal substances and equipment.
Entering private or secure government property/areas without authorization.
Supplying licensed equipment to unlicensed persons/organisation.
Vigilante actions.
Unlawful gathering.
Damage of private or public property. (does not apply to CPC in cases of destruction of illegal equipment)
Avoiding checkpoints/smuggling.
Preventing free movement of citizens/Barricading roads/passages. (Slow walking and slowing down the movement of others.)
Actions leading to mass terror.
Not paying transportation fee. (wonder if you can sneak onto trains/shuttles/teleporters)
Littering. Suicide. (together cause, you drop a body that someone has to clean up)
Fraud.
Falsifying ID.
Gambling without permit.
Hunting without permit.
Standing/walking on the grass.



I liked the idea of different levels of legality. One thing to add. Let corp sec departments/mercs and CPC/TDC own the actual schematics for their equipment, so they can decide who to license it to. Allow synd/FoE to produce illegal version of the schematic.


Fine with drug production. Though it would have been nice to see synd investing into district development and building underground illegal drug workshops. Maybe allow them to build specialised plant that can mass produce only one type of drug.
 

Cadonez

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Part 1 of my response geared towards Synd:
Territories
  1. Union Territories should be able to be controlled by Synd and FoE gangs and the CPC. The point of the mechanic should be a conflict between the clans and union over the ability to enforce the law in regions of the city and colonies.
  2. I do agree with a corruption mechanic, the higher the crime rate (increased by y'know crime) a percentage of tax income in a territory should go to the family/cell that owns it as passive siphoning. Active siphoning would take place on the colonies and be a much shorter term thing (hacking X node to siphon would last for an hour and have to be defended vs. owning a territory for steady income.)
  3. Bonuses should be given to the family holding it, such as cheaper property ownership and the ability to customize the game world slightly.
  4. Apart from income, higher crime rates should also reduce PP gained to the point of 0 eventually. Say a 100% crime rate means 30% income siphoned and 0 pp can be gained in an area, essentially making it a lawless area of the city. CPC presence, arrests, and investigation in a territory will reduce the rate. A possible avenue is an arrest of a"high profile individual" either a MW or someone who contributes highly to the crime rate in an area will reduce the rate more than a simple patrol through the area.
  5. Territories should be upgradable across the board and there should be a static TU station on each section of the Union City map. The emphasis should be on FoE in the outer rim territories however and syndicate dominating the UC ones.
  6. Big thing is allowing individual families to hold territories instead of just the Union to allow intrafaction conflict.
That's how I see it boiling down with territories for the Synd. Part 2 will be for other factions
 

Hari Seldon

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Entirely focusing selfishly on the faction I am in for now;

I would prefer to see FoE never being able to have multicom recognized/infrastructure backed control of a place in any system. They are the "other" of the game world (excluding the enlightened xenos hive-mind that is here to save us all from ourselves) so should not be fitted into the structures that the TU based factions acknowledge via the CHOAM-esk Corporate suzerainty ect. The multicom would still say OZ owns map X but they know they aren't getting what they should from it and will need to figure out why via investigation mechanics and collation of the data rather than a little map readout that says a version of here be terrorists at a incidence rate that has been declared somewhat arbitrarily as the 40% ratio that has such and such effect. Possibly you could make the analytics automated based on information input from player investigations but that is as far as you would want to take that. It could lead to fun things like CPC selling the crime datasets they gather and chances for groups to pay CPC members to falsify investigations and mess with the stats for various reasons.

FoE really should only be able to control territory in the de facto sense via player power to destroy and divert the throughput of TU infrastructure and implement their own player based systems of governance (if they want any) entirely outside the normal mechanics. Possibly there could be a conversation about the faction investing in their own systems if at some point FoE manages to openly hold a place for long enough but that is a conditional prospect depending on the evolution of the faction's ideology and their circumstances.

Until then FoE more than most other factions has less business trying to model off screen NPCs. A TU patrol through an area shouldn't play into a background separatist sympathy counter for a zone but be a requirement to dissuade or stop naughty FoE members from getting up to no good and quite often could find nothing, that is the nature of being the Empire's Tie fighters spread across the galaxy when there is only a small group of X-wings in one fleet.

The main difference to be pointed out between the two less reputable factions as well is that Syndicate territory possession is saying "this is our turf" where the key is to pull down a slice of the take while the concept for FoE is more that "this is not yours" with the point of preventing others from leveraging it. Underbelly vs enemy within.

NB. Everyone should be able to siphon via hacking resource generating infrastructure though obviously it would count as criminal behavior.
 
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Wilbon

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We're necroing this thread in regards to more discussion around territories and their ownership, and then eventual planetary ownership. Thread's a good read already but more discussion is good too.

I will make another reply with more from my side soon(tm).
 

Wilbon

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So a common concept regarding territory that has been thought/discussed about is to make it so that Corps and TDC take colonies while Clans (maybe minus GOTC) and CPC take territories. I wanna explain some thoughts behind that and why it could be beneficial.

Centralized vs. Decentralized​

First; this separation helps in regards to the differences in faction structure. Eventually, this game will be more than 8 factions because while SYN and FoE will be a faction of their own, they will be made up of a bunch of mini-factions. This decentralized structure will make it extremely difficult for these groups to compete with the competition if all the other factions have the benefit of being these centralized factions. It will almost always force gangs and sects to form these super alliances just to compete with other factions for control.

Additionally, with these factions having so many little sub-factions, they will all want to be able to claim some territory and then fight over that. If you have 6 other factions who can also compete for territory and be stronger because of centralized structures, you're going to have a lot of gangs and sects who simply have no ability to claim any territory for themselves. Territory will already be competitive, adding more factions to the mix just extends that problem.

But Wilby, CPC is a centralized faction?

Correct, but they're also a faction with lots of overhead and a unique purpose in the game world - to enforce the law throughout the union. The further they try to extend that enforcement, the more they spread themselves thinner to properly enforce it and the more overhead that will cost. Plus, other mechanics related to territory/planetary systems may also make it so that other outside influences (i.e corps and others in control) may not want CPC to have all that level of control.

Plus there is always the element of united against the police. You guys ever seen The Warriors...;
"You’re standing right now with nine delegates from 100 gangs. And there’s over 100 more. That’s 20,000 hard-core members. Forty thousand, counting affiliates, and 20,000 more, not organized but ready to fight. Sixty thousand soldiers. Now, there ain’t but 20,000 police in the whole town. Can you dig it?"

I think it speaks for itself.

Crime Rate System​

This is something that @Cadonez could dive further on, and has briefly touched in this thread already; but the general concept is that a crime rate system could also help alleviate some of the differences between CPC/gangs/sects as each group will be trying to accomplish some sort of new level/mechanic within those systems.

This has also been further iterated, particularly for why there are benefits to having CPC enforce laws (control territory) on your colony vs benefits for having gangs/sects control territory on your colonies. Highly recommend reading the previous, particularly @Joshua Jones 's post.

Territory Perks​

There is the intention that territories will be able to have a perk-tree like system in which territories can improve over time with ownership and re-investment, and then be reset to 0. There is also thoughts that the different factions who control territory would have their own faction-specific perks they can develop to.

Territory could have perks split into 3 categories. Generic — Territory Specific — Faction Specific

Generic Perks are perks that are so universal that any faction can invest into and benefit from. Consider the proposed changes in the TC banditry suggestion thread; in which a generic perk could be the ability to identify intruding factions (or departments in the case of SYN/FoE) instead of being completely vague.

Territory Specific perks are perks that are only relevant to that specific territory. For instance, Aurora - Mountain Outpost having a territory perk that allows a natural production of alien eggs. While I personally don't agree with that particular perk, it is a great example of a territory specific perk.

Faction Specific perks are obvious, things that only benefit the faction who owns the territory, and are thus locked to that faction. For CPC this could aid their law enforcement efforts, where SYN helps their crime efforts, and FoE helps their influence efforts.

Planetary Perks​

On the other side of the spectrum are planet owners (Corps and TDC). For them, they could also have perks but their perks apply on a planetary scale. So while FOODGANG may only be able to add perks for 2 territories on Mars, NSM could perk out the entire planet.

This also ties in well with the proposed plan to split up the economics on planets more, in which some planets may have more than 1 territory to mine in (with different resources and/or supply), more than 1 place to refine, and category-specific production terminals (such as an armor production terminal vs a weapon production terminal). This benefits corps because they can apply their relevant perks to all the services on that planet.

You could also have a certain cross-level of perk upgrades. For instance, NSM may be able to reach a tier 5 perk for mining because they are a mining-oriented corporation, but max out at tier 2 or 3 for production.

The planetary-level perks for TDC are yet to be thought of, but I bet the lords there could come up with some perks that would benefit their gameplay loops and reasoning for owning planets as well.


Territory & Planetary Economy​

Obviously, territories make money based on the LEGAL services that are on them. This benefits the territory owner. But, a tax/cut off the top of all income from territories could go to the planetary owner. Thus, the corps and TDC financially benefit from every territory on the planet regardless, where if FOODGANG had territories on Mars, we would only benefit from the territories we owned.

This incentivizes planetary ownership more, while also helping address a tenet of the game which is; corps and the TDC should be well funded for their role within the game.


There is probably more that I have missed that I will add later or someone I've had this discussion with may remember and add.
 
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