Lets talk about Ecoing, and AFK farming.

Ren Astarot

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Greetings, because I have difficulty following a chat that says this: "Several people are typing." I decided to make a thread about the issue, so that people of all time zones can be apart of the conversation. So a concern has been brought up about ecoing, at the moment Ecoing is sorta boring, you sorta log in, collect your missions, do your mining, collect your cash, and log out.

Now I understand this is an Alpha, and there only so much our small lovely dev team can do at once, however several people have expressed concern by both the lack of physical risk(your KDR is not consider a tangible risk) and the fact that the lack of people logging in could be contributed to the current eco system. However I, the ever intelligent private first class, and local bus driver of TDC have come up with a few solutions by listening to the screeching of my passengers as the discord road actively crashes!

Solution 1:"The boring and easy solution." Get rid of instant to storage transfer system, everything goes to your backpack, and you have to lug it to storage.

Solution 2: "Defense time solution." Add deployables that factions have to defend so that they and others that they "approve" can have a way to mine, produce and sell. These deployables can have an HP pool and potentially some sort of upkeep charage so people can't "Fire and forget" them. After all, we don't want this to be like eve online, where the a starbase at every freaken location. AKA: Please don't litter.

Solution 3: "Thunder dome mode." Remove eco, everyone drops random selection of gear when they die.


for context:
 

Sawyer Anderson

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I'd like to add that matt had a good idea


MattScootToday at 3:22 PM
Start a mining process, for a specific number of materials. A drone is deployed. You can do whatever you want. The drone mines at X rate. Say 8 hours for 250 material. If the drone is destroyed, the process is delayed and the cost of a new drone comes from the colony owner. Things this causes: factions a reason not to overextend and own planets they can’t guard, miners will search out planets that are protected to mine. Incentive for people to be outside the main hubs. Nobody has to afk to play the game in the style they want


1. have the bot show who's it is 2. allow it to be destroyed 3. if the bot dies have it either a. cost more or b. stall the timer.
 

Hepopotan

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Good fucking lord no to any of these. Ecoing is as necessary as it is god awful boring. Enhancing a inherently shitty experience by making ecoers do even more work sounds like bad idea. We don't wanna punish the ecolords any further or else they'll revolt and leave the markets dry.

Someone lock up this thread before it gets out and murders pre-alpha MR in the cradle.
 
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Venture Jones

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I personally like the drone idea. Deploying something to go out and mine that you can either let go on its own, or stay with it to defend it. When it is destroyed, the task stops where it is at until the player starts it again. Not too intrusive, but adds a little more to the game for eco.
 
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Ren Astarot

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Well, some people seem to like the Destructible deployable idea on the discord, so I decided to expand upon it.

First and clear thing, while I think the Structure/item should be destructible, I do think that it should be a large enough health pool that one person can't destroy it in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps add different teirs of each structure that have larger health pools with each upgraded teir...However of course, more expensive to manufacture.

Next, if possible, I think a structure should provide better mining the closer to a mineral rich zone you get, I also think the NPCs should occupy the core of the mineral rich zones, to prevent people for just dropping it on the center and forgetting about it...All about risk vs reward right?

Next, I think that the standard production hubs provide on planets should be the bare minimum production and refining, and more advance refining and production of times should be done with deployed structures from players, with the same key thing, closer to a special resource zone(Lets call it power) the faster it runs...Also higher teirs of production and refining structures should provide a speed boost to refining and production.

As a Bonus, perhaps make these structures hackable so that people can siphon off a small amount of resources from the structure, it can give the Syndicate and FoE something to do.

As a Second bonus, perhaps structures can also "white" list other players and or Factions for use, encouraging faction to faction relationships.

Final bonus: It could add Faction uniqueness, like lets say each faction gets their own unique structure NSM a special mining hub that only they can get, and Oda gets a special refinery...These are just example idea structures.
 
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Tornadium

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I'm happy to back any suggestion that prevents risk free and mechanically protected Mining/Production.

Don't care what form it takes as long as that core principle is part of it.
 

Rian Felix

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Ecoing when offline to be tweaked somehow.

Dying while ecoing should halt all economic processes (not delete them), forcing the player to restart the process giving them a reason to not afk and die somewhere.
 

Sawyer Anderson

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Ecoing when offline to be tweaked somehow.

Dying while ecoing should halt all economic processes (not delete them), forcing the player to restart the process giving them a reason to not afk and die somewhere.
Nothing is stopping TU from setting their miners and then going to fort ceres
 

HBnY

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I am with Rians idea. Plain simple and easy to implement and balance. I would like to remind everyone that drone stuff would take like 3 months to code for the pathway, collision, model, and shit, then another 3 months of QA testing to find any bugs and exploit finding, then 1 week of fixing the bugs and exploits, not to mention having to code an area where the drones can mine which would obviously be cluttered as fuck once we get to 500 active players which would need another 1 months of fix and then also another 2 months of balancing everything.
 
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GeeKay

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How a basic production process could work from my point of view.

Player enters colony with intent to mine resouce Bauxite, has to travel to mining terminals. At mining terminal he initiates process to start mining Bauxite. For the deployable drone to activate it takes approx 30 seconds of standing at terminal.

The amount of time it requires to mine the resource is dynamic based on density. Cost is constant. For example, to minimize risk, a player may opt into a 2 hour mine time for Bauxite, and receive 50 units. a 4 hour mine time and receive 150 units, or an 8 hour minute time and receive 450 units.

After the player chooses 4 hours and 150 units, it takes 30 seconds for them at the terminal and the drone will deploy. At this point the player travels to other planets to get the materials for what hes making.

During these 4 hours, the credits paid for the mining rig are held in escrow until the process is complete, however the drones are able to be disrupted by players in the world, by destroying them. If this happens, the mining player will receive a mail and must return and start the process again. Drones are not marked so if you wish to disrupt an individual player you are likely to aggravate multiple people, including the faction who has not received payment for the materials yet.
This creates incentive for factions to actively defend their colonies, as well as options during hostilities for factions to disrupt the income of another faction, while putting ecoers at an acceptable level of risk.

After the 4 hours are up, the miner returns to the planet and may choose to teleport the resources off world or refine on world. i believe on world refinement should be slightly cheaper than off world, but has the added risk that while refining you must be on the planet. this should be a quick process ( say for a full batch of 450 units around 15 minutes).
Player then transports these materials via storage system, can do interesting stuff here where transports off planet of cargo only happens every 15 minutes and takes 15 minutes, can be disrupted by hacking etc. regardless the cheapest option to transport should be through the space station.
Player repeats this for all resources he mined, while also being able to play the game in between.

Imo all production facilities should be on earth. Storywise would make sense. Similar to refinement, you must actively produce but are able to do it relatively quickly.

Recipes should make some sort of sense regarding yields.

E.g. 150 bauxite refined into 75 aluminum, 450 organic materials + 150 chemical substances refined into 150 biomedical materials. 300 chemical substances refined into 450 textiles

Recipe for Medical Packs requires 1 Aluminum, 2 Biomed, 3 Textiles and 2 water. So all these mats would yield 75 medpacs.

System can be used to add what i would call "friction points" to the game so people can make their own content.
 
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Jade Star

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"Lets talk about making ecoing unnecessarily tedious" is what you should of named this thread. Leave ecoing the way it is and add what Rian suggested, if you die it halts its progress and maybe you have to go pick up the materials you were mining and bring it to storage. BUT as long as their is no weight limit like in FOTD that wasn't very fun. Of-course ecoing is boring to you, you aren't ecoers your purpose is to give us money when we do the boring work for you.
 

Ren Astarot

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"Lets talk about making ecoing unnecessarily tedious" is what you should of named this thread. Leave ecoing the way it is and add what Rian suggested, if you die it halts its progress and maybe you have to go pick up the materials you were mining and bring it to storage. BUT as long as their is no weight limit like in FOTD that wasn't very fun. Of-course ecoing is boring to you, you aren't ecoers your purpose is to give us money when we do the boring work for you.
There no reason to give Ecoers money, in the current edition of eco, there is no penalty for ecoing at the same time as combat. If we use eve as an example( I know, tiring, but it what I have the most experance with that even remotely related to MR), if you are primarily a PVE character, then you greatly gimp yourself combat wise and visversa. If your character was heavily combat focus, you often gimped yourself mining and crafting wise.

In eve online, each path had it own unique branching of investments, in Eve online, you needed to invest in skills to grow the the type of ships and equipment you needed to go mining, and to do it better than the next guy, Eve online has a PVP market as well, so those that can sell it for cheaper is the one who gets the money in the long run. An even then, PVE(Mining, ecoing, combat farming) had it own unique branches of specialization, as a Miner, if you grow your wealth in different types of ships, you can also do different types of mining, be it mining in dangerous pve areas, ninja mining(Mining in enemy areas) or wormhole mining(Mining in hyper remote areas known as wormhole space), each area provided it own semi-unique resource. Which in turn, the Industralist, who job was collect all these different types of resources and make something useful out of it, the more advance and larger the project, the more minerals are required, some of the hyper advance stuff was hyper impractical to do yourself, so often people had to choose to buy the minerals off the market to make the equipment, this required an investment in blueprints, copies, and researching of the blueprints to reduce the cost of them(and in turn make it more profitable to sell.) This required a completely DIFFERENT time sink from miners, and in turn made the industrialist dependent on miners for advance projects.

PVPers or combat PVErs then buy their equipment cause they don't have the skill sets required to make all their own shit, they go get blown up as they make money, requiring them to go and buy some more, completing the ultimate eve online market triangle. Repeat>gather>craft>destroy>repeat.


Why am I telling you all this? Cause the current MR eco system, the individual is not dependent on anyone, I can mine and craft all of my own gear, it not hard to get a small collection of armor, weapons, ammo, and medkits on every planet, If I want to as a player, I can be completely and easily independent of the market. There is no consequence for choosing a path, I can be Eco-pve-pvp all as one character.
 

Egroeg

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As Cdonez said, don't overcomplicate.

I'm fine with what Rian has said with the whole maybe at most if you die you just have to go restart, with the possibility of adding that you may have to carry resources (or pay to send?) to storage once done (given no weight temporary or something so you're not taking 20min to walk+ez gonk)

That's at most should be done, otherwise, it's fine.
 

BioXide

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I thought about making a new thread, but I'd rather keep the discussion going here. Here's some of the stuff regarding ecoing that I've compiled. I want to take baby steps with new eco stuff since what we have now works at a very basic level and I want to keep fleshing out the current system, most of it is still just throwing ideas into the mix, nothing is concrete.

Ecoing/Mining
Every player should have the ability to eco and progress through the game, from the designated public terminals, which is what we currently have at the moment. This should only be viable for smaller stuff such as T1 gear, and will be slower and more expensive than active mining. The only disruption passive ecoing would have is the terminals being disabled due to a player-driven event (Destroying a generator, hacking terminals to disable them, etc) or getting ganked.

Risks to passive mining
Possible solution: Task will end if the player leaves the world, this allows afking, but the player will have to ensure to not get ganked or get kicked off due to AFK timer. (Ideally would prefer the fom method of dying cancels out the eco tasks in any world, but this is not possible at the moment with the current backend system due to cross-server/backend communication).

Additional solution:
MOVE FORWARD WE LOVE YOU MR DEVS back to the system we had before having to move the minerals manually in the inventory and having to pay to transfer to storage.

Density system
The more a mineral gets mined, the less amount of it will be available in the world OR the more time it will take to mine OR the price will increase OR a combination of some of those. Density will then reset slowly if the mineral doesn’t get mined or it gets completely removed until it regenerates.

Active Mining
There needs to be a form of active mining (higher risks, higher rewards), such as placing rigs, drones, controlling outposts, etc, that require players to be online and actively playing to manage if left unwatched, other factions can hack and siphon resources or outright destroy the system. Also integrating some sort of timed transport where the minerals will have to be transported, either manually by players or through another system that will encourage more faction activity to prevent their minerals from getting stolen by other factions.

Refinement/Production
Will use the same ideology of mining, there should be two methods, passive and active. Passive is what we have right now, of being safe and you won’t be able to lose your items. While the active method is either deploying production machines, taking over outposts, or any other method that encourages factions to fight over due to the additional benefits (Faster production, fewer costs, no taxes?). This would also be hackable and destroyable, which would require players to be more active around this form of production.

Oh also, PMOD licenses will be moved into the production terminal and will not use the market system moving forward.
 
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GeeKay

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I’ve mentioned before but I am very much against tying costs to active vs passive mining, or forcing someone to be on world for extended periods of time.

Connecting costs directly to passive or active mining ensures that you will *never* be able to compete if you choose the more expensive one, thus making it moot because it will rarely be utilized. I much prefer the investment be in opportunity costs; if you choose the active option, you receive your investment faster and are able to compete on a bulk scale.

Similarly I am against tying somebody to being online / on colony for extended periods of time In order to compete. This just encourages AFKing andhiding, not particularly captivating gameplay.

Personally I think it would be bad game design, when in order to compete economically my daily routine when coming home from work and popping open the game would be to start a process and AFK for a couple hours. I wouldn’t even be playing the game.

that’s why my solutions generally put the risk of income towards the factional level, it brings more people into solutions to where they have something to do in the game that can be felt as important, while the time investment goes to individuals who can actually go do fun things in the game outside of making the economy run
 

Sawyer Anderson

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I'd be ok with a passive density system as long as the offline off-world is left alone many times I'll log it set material and then go to work if I have to do that when I get home then I'm not actively playing
 

JeffDillinger

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What if you make the active a corp thing? As in, they can build "private" terminals in certain areas for mining/refining. They can spend faction funds to upgrade these terminals to make them more efficiënt and cheap. Maybe even sell licenses for other factions to operate these terminals. Other corps will obviously have the incentive to destroy these private terminals since the lowers the production costs for the competition. This might be a nice source of conflict for two reasons: corp terminals can only be placed on "owned" colonies and it's beneficial to hire mercs to destroy the terminals for the competition (or do it themselves but risk a war over it).

I don't think drones themselves will add much since no doubt the AI is not going to be good enough.
 

Banaroth

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In any sandbox hardcore game like MR there are always a couple of systems that go easy on people just so the economies are able to stay up and running. At least that's what I've seen and that's what I support.

There are too many costs already, +taxes when it's time, plus the risk of gankers which especially at this point is RIDICULOUS without proper faction content. The terminals are already far from each other, so it takes time either way, then you have to consider the back and forth needed for big batches of big orders etc. etc., it just creates too much chaos.

Also keep in mind that planets (at least so far) aren't really spacious, they are linear. You bump into people and trouble all the time, and there's not a lot of variety in the amount and the locations of the terminals, and that's a space issue again. So what about campers, what if a material can only be mined in a couple of planets and you're at war or people hold grudges, it's just not working.

We don't need to turn eco into a super risky, super expensive, super tiring, and endless activity. If we do something let's go all the way, if we want it to be 100% pvp, make eco a risky business, enable full equipment drop on death, no insurances no nothing. But I don't think that's the case, markets and diplomacy can and should go a long way in game, that's how it always has been.