My own personal thoughts on permadeath.

Valor

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Greetings.

I'll skip over any fanciful introduction and get right into the crunch of things: I don't like mandatory permadeath. However, I'm not against it completely.

PVP is to be expected in a game like this. FoM had it, I took part in it a lot, and losing your inventory was something that I never had a problem with as that's the risk you took when engaging in PVP. Old School Runescape has total inventory loss as a standard for any death, and MR being no different doesn't phase me.

However, permadeath is a lot trickier to me. Mainly because I like putting in a lot of time and effort on character appearances, motivations, style, and backstories. So I don't really like the idea that dying to ganks a lot would eventually completely remove all of the effort I put in on making a character. Not to mention that nobody really likes killing off "Commander Hate" and then seeing "Commander Hate1" or "Commander Hater" stepping out of the new arrivals ship.

So, I would like to propose a compromise: Make permadeath an optional opt-in challenge, similar to Runescape's Ironman and Hardcore Ironman modes. This would give people who want the thrill of working with permadeath an additional way to show that they're a "hardcore" player, while allowing those who simply don't want to deal with permadeath the option of avoiding it.

I do understand that this would probably require a rebalance to a lot of systems, but I think it'd be worth it in the long-run in order to keep people from rage-quitting if their hard work was suddenly and irreversibly destroyed by someone who felt like going on a shooting spree.
 
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John White

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Did anyone ever perma die without actually trying to do it?
I don't think that ever happened.

Then again, I don't really see what perma death will add to the game. The only use for I can see is when player screws up really bad and wants to restart their character.
Though if economy this time will be less forgiving, it would be fun to see some players offering 100 UC bjs not to perma die, lol.

But why would they be afraid to perma die? Connections you make in the factions will stay the same, money? well the reason you permad was cause you were broke.
Wonder what other player progression they will implement for players to be less inclined to off themselves.

EDIT: Just remembered, I really liked the part where MWs couldn't buy clones and had to perma die.
 
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Pablo Hernandez

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I always liked the perma death aspect of FoM. If I fucked up too hard I'd just off myself and start fresh lmao, Also nothing as satisfying as learning you just perma deathed someone you killed because they either didnt have enough money to buy more clones or they werent paying attention to their clone count lol.
 
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Valor

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I always liked the perma death aspect of FoM. If I fucked up too hard I'd just off myself and start fresh lmao, Also nothing as satisfying as learning you just perma deathed someone you killed because they either didnt have enough money to buy more clones or they werent paying attention to their clone count lol.
"If I fucked up too hard I'd just off myself and start fresh"

This is another thing that I don't personally like about it. I feel like it provides a way out for people who want to abuse it to get that way out. Think of it like playing a choice-important story game with quicksave and quickload, and any time you're faced with a choice you quicksave and then test to see if you like the outcome and quickload if you don't. Where's the sense of responsibility there?

I'd like it better if there was an emphasis on living with the choices you make instead of having the easy out of "Well there's permadeath so I'm going to go on a big shooting spree and then just get permakilled so nobody knows it was me." Not to mention that with that line of thought someone that's on their last clone and trying to engage in "safe" activities to build up money and rebuild their character could get randomly killed and have their character wiped, which could lead to a rage quit and one less player in the game, which can have a spiral effect and cause the game to start shedding players.

"Also nothing as satisfying as learning you just perma deathed someone you killed"

This does bring up an interesting counterpoint. There is a loss of that sense of satisfaction and I'm not totally sure how it would be replicated. Maybe if there wasn't "permadeath" for that specific player (as they opted out) dying too many times would cause them to have to wait out a "Neural shock syndrome" timer, which would essentially be a soft lockout on playing for a few hours? It'd be similar in punishment to permadeath in that it's a sign that you really screwed up, but would allow people to keep hold of their characters?

-----------------------

Did anyone ever perma die without actually trying to do it?
I don't think that ever happened.

Then again, I don't really see what perma death will add to the game. The only use for I can see is when player screws up really bad and wants to restart their character.
Though if economy this time will be less forgiving, it would be fun to see some players offering 100 UC bjs not to perma die, lol.

But why would they be afraid to perma die? Connections you make in the factions will stay the same, money? well the reason you permad was cause you were broke.
Wonder what other player progression they will implement for players to be less inclined to off themselves.

EDIT: Just remembered, I really liked the part where MWs couldn't buy clones and had to perma die.
"Did anyone ever perma die without actually trying to do it?"

I think it might've happened to me once or twice when I was new to the game and didn't understand the cloning system. Which was a pretty harsh learning experience and something that made me not play for several days when it hit.

"The only use for I can see is when player screws up really bad and wants to restart their character."

As I said above, I don't really like having a "I screwed up and now have to be responsible for my screw-up" escape.
 
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Pablo Hernandez

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"If I fucked up too hard I'd just off myself and start fresh"

This is another thing that I don't personally like about it. I feel like it provides a way out for people who want to abuse it to get that way out. Think of it like playing a choice-important story game with quicksave and quickload, and any time you're faced with a choice you quicksave and then test to see if you like the outcome and quickload if you don't. Where's the sense of responsibility there?

I'd like it better if there was an emphasis on living with the choices you make instead of having the easy out of "Well there's permadeath so I'm going to go on a big shooting spree and then just get permakilled so nobody knows it was me." Not to mention that with that line of thought someone that's on their last clone and trying to engage in "safe" activities to build up money and rebuild their character could get randomly killed and have their character wiped, which could lead to a rage quit and one less player in the game, which can have a spiral effect and cause the game to start shedding players.

"Also nothing as satisfying as learning you just perma deathed someone you killed"

This does bring up an interesting counterpoint. There is a loss of that sense of satisfaction and I'm not totally sure how it would be replicated. Maybe if there wasn't "permadeath" for that specific player (as they opted out) dying too many times would cause them to have to wait out a "Neural shock syndrome" timer, which would essentially be a soft lockout on playing for a few hours? It'd be similar in punishment to permadeath in that it's a sign that you really screwed up, but would allow people to keep hold of their characters?

-----------------------



"Did anyone ever perma die without actually trying to do it?"

I think it might've happened to me once or twice when I was new to the game and didn't understand the cloning system. Which was a pretty harsh learning experience and something that made me not play for several days when it hit.

"The only use for I can see is when player screws up really bad and wants to restart their character."

As I said above, I don't really like having a "I screwed up and now have to be responsible for my screw-up" escape.
I guess I should clarify my definition of "fucking up too hard" in this situation lol usually when I fucked up too hard it resulted in me being hunted planet by planet by a group of individuals and the game was unplayable and I needed to change my name or whatever without spending a fat stack of real money to buy a name changer from the website lol Im all about people living with the results of their actions.
 
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Wilbon

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Maybe if there wasn't "permadeath" for that specific player (as they opted out) dying too many times would cause them to have to wait out a "Neural shock syndrome" timer, which would essentially be a soft lockout on playing for a few hours? It'd be similar in punishment to permadeath in that it's a sign that you really screwed up, but would allow people to keep hold of their characters?
Forcing players to not be able to play the game because they weren't good enough at it to not die too many times is not particularly a good idea for a game developer.

IMO; I think you had the best idea with the opt-in element of it. Perhaps on character creation they can opt-in for a hardcore run and select from 1, 3, or 10 clones with no ability to buy more.

You could further add on to the system by doing what RuneScape does and allow those players to buy a limited amount of extra lives, but have it be rather costly. So maybe at most you could buy 2 extra clones for a total of a million UC. After that, you're fucked.

As for the sense of satisfaction from permaing someone, could have an exclusive item that a perma'd character drops to their killer that they can keep as a trophy. Serves nothing and isn't all that forcible since not everyone can perma, but allows bragging rights and satisfaction for ending that character.
 

Valor

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Forcing players to not be able to play the game because they weren't good enough at it to not die too many times is not particularly a good idea for a game developer.

IMO; I think you had the best idea with the opt-in element of it. Perhaps on character creation they can opt-in for a hardcore run and select from 1, 3, or 10 clones with no ability to buy more.

You could further add on to the system by doing what RuneScape does and allow those players to buy a limited amount of extra lives, but have it be rather costly. So maybe at most you could buy 2 extra clones for a total of a million UC. After that, you're fucked.

As for the sense of satisfaction from permaing someone, could have an exclusive item that a perma'd character drops to their killer that they can keep as a trophy. Serves nothing and isn't all that forcible since not everyone can perma, but allows bragging rights and satisfaction for ending that character.
I like basically all of this. An idea that just popped into my head with the mention of "perma-kill trophies" would be to have them be able to be added as a weapon accessory? So like say if you've got a lot of "Kill Medals" and you add one to a rifle you get a skull accessory for it, or something like that?

Or an item that you can buy after your first permakill called something like the "Slayer's longcoat", which you can upgrade with "Kill Medals" to display a higher and higher number of kills? Would add to the status appeal of it.
 
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Pablo Hernandez

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I like basically all of this. An idea that just popped into my head with the mention of "perma-kill trophies" would be to have them be able to be added as a weapon accessory? So like say if you've got a lot of "Kill Medals" and you add one to a rifle you get a skull accessory for it, or something like that?

Or an item that you can buy after your first permakill called something like the "Slayer's longcoat", which you can upgrade with "Kill Medals" to display a higher and higher number of kills? Would add to the status appeal of it.
I'd personally like to remove their heads from their bodies and hang them on the walls of my apartment as a trophy lmao good ideas though.
 
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John White

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We are baby sitting now?
Yeah, if you aren't good at the game you die.
Why do you make it sound like an outrageous concept?
As for opt in, I think it's dumb.
No, I hate it. And I can't prove why.


My reasons for not to have perma death is for players to stick with their choices and play the consequences.
My reasons for perma death is cause it sounds cool, and I liked the idea of criminals perma dying when they were MWs. (which kinda helped them make new character, but made them loose that HoF position)

yeah...

Oh and Pablo, I had several factions KoS ing me for some reasons and actively hunting me, and I was doing fine, never thought of perming.
They got bored eventually. (never actually killed me.)
So there are ways to deal with that not having to kill yourself.
Suicide is never the answer folks, always seek professional help.
 
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Pablo Hernandez

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No John, I mean literally, hunting me. all day everyday lol was their only goal. I couldnt do contracts, couldnt eco, therefore, unplayable. I wasnt a CMG/EC/etc. member where I could just go sit in my faction HQ and hide all day lol
 

John White

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No John, I mean literally, hunting me. all day everyday lol was their only goal. I couldnt do contracts, couldnt eco, therefore, unplayable. I wasnt a CMG/EC/etc. member where I could just go sit in my faction HQ and hide all day lol
Porta vort did wonders my friend.

EDIT:
See where taking shady contracts gets you?
Yet you haven't learned your lesson xD
 
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Valor

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We are baby sitting now?
Yeah, if you aren't good at the game you die.
Why do you make it sound like an outrageous concept?
As for opt in, I think it's dumb.
No, I hate it. And I can't prove why.


My reasons for not to have perma death is for players to stick with their choices and play the consequences.
My reasons for perma death is cause it sounds cool, and I liked the idea of criminals perma dying when they were MWs. (which kinda helped them make new character, but made them loose that HoF position)

yeah...

Oh and Pablo, I had several factions KoS ing me for some reasons and actively hunting me, and I was doing fine, never thought of perming.
They got bored eventually. (never actually killed me.)
So there are ways to deal with that not having to kill yourself.
Suicide is never the answer folks, always seek professional help.

"Yeah, if you aren't good at the game you die."

This is fair, but at the same time I highly doubt that a lot of people are going to join the game and suddenly be peerless PVP players with a mastery of all of the movement, aiming, and whatever other mechanics happen to be around. There is almost always a learning experience for players and for some players it might be their first time ever playing a game like this. Having permadeath be constant feels like a good way to have a large swarm of players on launch, and then a month later the majority of the playerbase is burned away and all that's left are hardcore PVP people who shoot on sight and never stop to roleplay or interact with anyone (outside of shooting and looting them), which doesn't sound like a recipe for success.

Having it be opt-in, as previously described, allows for people who want that hardcore experience to have that hardcore experience and allows people who would prefer not to have that hardcore of an experience to play the game in a manner that they see fit.

Having a Most Wanted system where the person is subject to a longer-than-usual respawn would be interesting, but as was pointed out completely stopping people from playing the game isn't always a grand idea. So I don't know for sure how to implement that.

Either way, I can understand the dislike of having a non-permadeath option because I can understand the frustration of someone not playing by the same "rules" as someone that chooses to permadeath, but I still feel like having permadeath be optional will allow for more long-term success.
 
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John White

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"Yeah, if you aren't good at the game you die."

This is fair, but at the same time I highly doubt that a lot of people are going to join the game and suddenly be peerless PVP players with a mastery of all of the movement, aiming, and whatever other mechanics happen to be around. There is almost always a learning experience for players and for some players it might be their first time ever playing a game like this. Having permadeath be constant feels like a good way to have a large swarm of players on launch, and then a month later the majority of the playerbase is burned away and all that's left are hardcore PVP people who shoot on sight and never stop to roleplay or interact with anyone (outside of shooting and looting them), which doesn't sound like a recipe for success.

Having it be opt-in, as previously described, allows for people who want that hardcore experience to have that hardcore experience and allows people who would prefer not to have that hardcore of an experience to play the game in a manner that they see fit.

Having a Most Wanted system where the person is subject to a longer-than-usual respawn would be interesting, but as was pointed out completely stopping people from playing the game isn't always a grand idea. So I don't know for sure how to implement that.

Either way, I can understand the dislike of having a non-permadeath option because I can understand the frustration of someone not playing by the same "rules" as someone that chooses to permadeath, but I still feel like having permadeath be optional will allow for more long-term success.
This isn't a counter strike you know.
In FoM I rarely even carried a weapon. I absolutely suck at fombat.
Perma dying doesn't prevent you from playing the game in any way. You can jump back in right away. But it helps with immersion. Hopefully there is some decent character progression so perma dying feels actually impactful.

In addition, you will most likely be part of a faction that will support you. I can't imagine a faction member not giving a new guy few credits if they tell them they fucked up and are about to perma and they don't want to. (Will probably depend on faction, like mercs won't give a damn)
So you will probably only perma die if you skipped tutorial.


In addition it will add extra strategic layer to wars. HC will have to take care not to exhaust their troops too much to the point where they start perma dying.
 

Valor

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This isn't a counter strike you know.
In FoM I rarely even carried a weapon. I absolutely suck at fombat.
Perma dying doesn't prevent you from playing the game in any way. You can jump back in right away. But it helps with immersion. Hopefully there is some decent character progression so perma dying feels actually impactful.

In addition, you will most likely be part of a faction that will support you. I can't imagine a faction member not giving a new guy few credits if they tell them they fucked up and are about to perma and they don't want to. (Will probably depend on faction, like mercs won't give a damn)
So you will probably only perma die if you skipped tutorial.


In addition it will add extra strategic layer to wars. HC will have to take care not to exhaust their troops too much to the point where they start perma dying.
"This isn't a counter strike you know."

This is true and valid, however, there is also the problem that a decent chunk or large majority of FoM's factions dealt with combat or hostile encounters in some way. Law Enforcement Department, Freedom Defense Corps, Galactic Intelligence Service (Maybe. This one I'm kinda iffy but Wikipedia does say "Secret Service" which complicates things), The Brotherhood of the Shadows, The Mercenaries of The Blood, and the Guardians of Mankind all dealt with combat or hostility heavy encounters by being police, military, secret service, mercenaries, gang members, or freedom fighters.

The only factions I can see that are explicitly non combat are Civilians, Vortex Inc, Eurocore, and the Colonization and Mining Guild.

Now, that isn't to say that MR will have as much combat focus, but FoM seems to have had a lot of it, so PVP longevity is something that I'd want to be careful with.

"In addition, you will most likely be part of a faction that will support you."

I would hope, but sadly I've watched the internet change vastly in a short timespan. I don't like to get into this rhetoric but it does certainly seem to be more toxic than it used to be. Will MR be full of toxicity and unhelpful people? Probably not, but it certainly doesn't seem like it's something that is more likely now than it was before. Not to mention there are a lot of people, myself included, who are more reclusive than most and prefer to be semi-self sufficient.

"In addition it will add extra strategic layer to wars. HC will have to take care not to exhaust their troops too much to the point where they start perma dying."

This is an important aspect that I agree with, which is why I brought up the idea of having an alternative to permadeath for people who opted out that was still a form of punishment like "Neural Shock Syndrome", but it'd need to be tweaked so that it's better.
 
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John White

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his is true and valid, however, there is also the problem that a decent chunk or large majority of FoM's factions dealt with combat or hostile encounters in some way. Law Enforcement Department, Freedom Defense Corps, Galactic Intelligence Service (Maybe. This one I'm kinda iffy but Wikipedia does say "Secret Service" which complicates things), The Brotherhood of the Shadows, The Mercenaries of The Blood, and the Guardians of Mankind all dealt with combat or hostility heavy encounters by being police, military, secret service, mercenaries, gang members, or freedom fighters.
LED and FDC fought gankers all the time.
Now other factions usually only fought during wars. Mercs did whatever they were hired for.


I would hope, but sadly I've watched the internet change vastly in a short timespan. I don't like to get into this rhetoric but it does certainly seem to be more toxic than it used to be. Will MR be full of toxicity and unhelpful people? Probably not, but it certainly doesn't seem like it's something that is more likely now than it was before. Not to mention there are a lot of people, myself included, who are more reclusive than most and prefer to be semi-self sufficient.
You misunderstand.
Faction you are part of will help you not out of the goodness of their heart, but because players are a resource. Probably the most valuable resource in the game. More active people you have more income the faction will have and the stronger the faction will be in wars.
As for reclusive and self-sufficient players, that's fine, but don't blame the system when you fail going alone against the world.

I feel like this is something that can be easily changed, and we can decide it closer to game launch or even have in game government decide it. Like social security programme.
 
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Egroeg

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Did you play FoM? Because unless it was added way later near the end or something (I only perma'd once so I don't know the entire process later in the years), you could just reuse the same name. As well as what you talking about after a while it was just 'hardcore pvp people who shoot on site and not rp". That happened at times maybe and maybe with certain groups but it wasn't an always thing, especially random. Maybe your faction started something and a group was going around retaliating a little? Who knows, there was generally a background rp reason to going around KoSing. (Not always because I'd always gank AFKEcoers for the lulz, or suicide nade L1 for the lulz when I was bored and had extra money)

But I'm not quoting shit because I'm trying to cover anything said by anyone anywhere. But it really wasn't hard to not perma, clones were like what 100-150uc? If you can't make like 1,500uc to get 10 clones and make that last, then yeah, get perma'd. It was real easy to make that doing basic stuff or running a quick group with friends once or twice. I know MR will be different but I still don't see it being too difficult to make just enough to keep cloning, even when struggling (I've been there). You can also resort to selling leftover gear in random storages from when you bought crap when you did have a little extra. You can also learn to be smart with your money, don't combat load all the time. I usually was naked when doing eco runs or was poor and wanted to chill with friends, so all I'd lose when getting ganked or attacked was a clone (just 150uc). Then if it kept happening, I'd go elsewhere or get friends to help to stop the issue. Or even HC could step in, contact the other faction "Hey whytf is so and so ganking my dudes, you wanna start shit?", would sometimes stop stuff.

Also as said, most factions (esp BoS back in '09) were pretty good at accepting and helping new players. Getting them into groups right away, hanging out and protecting them to make money and learn the game. Which should be each factions goal to invest a little into new players to keep them in the faction and not having them switch to another that might treat them better. Like Mr. White side, factions should invest a little into their greatest product, players, especially if they can afford it a little and are doing ok as a faction at the time. Either giving them a few sets of gear or extra money to get started into things. I know for The Syndicate, amongst HC and old members, as well as our new code I believe; Were trying to make it the gangs job to bring in the new players and teach them and take care of them.


TL;DR Anyways, keep perma, along with decently cheap clones. Stop being carebears, it wasn't that hard to not perma. (Again, I'd know, from someone constantly hunted/on KOS for being an idiot, and trolling and getting killed all the time)

P.S. I did however like the idea of a reward for permaing someone, a trophy and maybe points so you can buy exclusive items to showoff "wow he has perma'd 10 people", esp for mercs. As well as we could see for other avenues at making it more punishable to perma, other than just losing all your shit (which you could always give to others, die, come back and be good). But it's also on the Staff to watch and make sure others aren't permafarming for more UC or abusing it for other situations as such.
 
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Valor

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Did you play FoM? Because unless it was added way later near the end or something (I only perma'd once so I don't know the entire process later in the years), you could just reuse the same name.
Yep. Did. Don't remember that being a thing. Though I was also much younger at the time. So it probably eluded me like a lot of things did about FoM.

As well as what you talking about after a while it was just 'hardcore pvp people who shoot on site and not rp". That happened at times maybe and maybe with certain groups but it wasn't an always thing, especially random. Maybe your faction started something and a group was going around retaliating a little? Who knows, there was generally a background rp reason to going around KoSing. (Not always because I'd always gank AFKEcoers for the lulz, or suicide nade L1 for the lulz when I was bored and had extra money)
I'm more worried about how the playerbase would recover. Permadeath games have fallen by the wayside these days, and they fell by the wayside a long time ago too. There are some notable exceptions and self-imposed challenges but a lot of the games that have permadeath usually have it as an option that you can choose and not a mandatory "hey this is a thing that happens" sort of deal.

But I'm not quoting shit because I'm trying to cover anything said by anyone anywhere. But it really wasn't hard to not perma, clones were like what 100-150uc? If you can't make like 1,500uc to get 10 clones and make that last, then yeah, get perma'd. It was real easy to make that doing basic stuff or running a quick group with friends once or twice. I know MR will be different but I still don't see it being too difficult to make just enough to keep cloning, even when struggling (I've been there). You can also resort to selling leftover gear in random storages from when you bought crap when you did have a little extra. You can also learn to be smart with your money, don't combat load all the time. I usually was naked when doing eco runs or was poor and wanted to chill with friends, so all I'd lose when getting ganked or attacked was a clone (just 150uc). Then if it kept happening, I'd go elsewhere or get friends to help to stop the issue. Or even HC could step in, contact the other faction "Hey whytf is so and so ganking my dudes, you wanna start shit?", would sometimes stop stuff.
This paragraph in particular seems to contradict what you're saying. You say that if you can't make 1500 UC to get 10 clones then you deserve to be perma'd, but in the paragraph before you stated that you'd gank AFK money farmers for the lulz, and randomly cause mayhem when you were bored and had the money to spare.

Those are people who might be trying to make that 1500 UC for ten clones and the people who might be learning the game, and ganking them might've been the straw that made them say "Okay. Done playing this."

Also as said, most factions (esp BoS back in '09) were pretty good at accepting and helping new players. Getting them into groups right away, hanging out and protecting them to make money and learn the game. Which should be each factions goal to invest a little into new players to keep them in the faction and not having them switch to another that might treat them better. Like Mr. White side, factions should invest a little into their greatest product, players, especially if they can afford it a little and are doing ok as a faction at the time. Either giving them a few sets of gear or extra money to get started into things. I know for The Syndicate, amongst HC and old members, as well as our new code I believe; Were trying to make it the gangs job to bring in the new players and teach them and take care of them.


TL;DR Anyways, keep perma, along with decently cheap clones. Stop being carebears, it wasn't that hard to not perma. (Again, I'd know, from someone constantly hunted/on KOS for being an idiot, and trolling and getting killed all the time)

P.S. I did however like the idea of a reward for permaing someone, a trophy and maybe points so you can buy exclusive items to showoff "wow he has perma'd 10 people", esp for mercs. As well as we could see for other avenues at making it more punishable to perma, other than just losing all your shit (which you could always give to others, die, come back and be good). But it's also on the Staff to watch and make sure others aren't permafarming for more UC or abusing it for other situations as such.
Helping out newbies is always good, cannot disagree there.

The problem I see is that gaming moved in certain directions for very notable reasons. Like regenerating health. I remember the days when playing on hard in Call of Duty meant hopping from healthpack to healthpack and hoping that the enemy AI didn't hit you at random and not cowering behind a chest-high wall waiting for a red screen to go away. Not every change is suited for the people who want that hardcore challenge, but there are certain times when an evolution must take place.

The original wolfenstein had limited health, limited lives, and a high score table despite not being an arcade game. What did DOOM do? Got rid of the limited lives and the high score table explicitly because it wasn't an arcade game. Quake III Arena, Team Arena, and Unreal Tournament had pushed arena FPS games into a state of perfection, but FPS games couldn't maintain that. Something had to change, and they had to evolve. Then Halo: Combat Evolved came out, and while many things were changed from the arena shooter tradition I rarely see anyone decry Halo as being something that's ruined FPS games.

I watched FoM die twice, and I have hope for MR. I really don't want to watch it launch and die before it gets a chance to take its first breath. Mandatory permadeath might not be something that helps it stay alive. Though I suppose the only thing to really do is wait and see what happens.

Don't get me wrong, I love hard and challenging games. I put 360+ hours on Dark Souls (for PC. On original X360 I have no idea how many hours I logged) for a good reason. But even with Dark Souls you weren't limited on lives, just how long you wanted to persevere.