On the clans

JeffDillinger

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Edit since I can't delete: I was not clear at first, apologies.
 
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HBnY

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Good argument. You might want to read your own faction's backstory because it even states it in there that you're a "collection of cells operating independently".

Here, got the link for you:
we are not allowed and will not take contracts against other mercs lol. That is what Pablo is saying lol.
 

JeffDillinger

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we are not allowed and will not take contracts against other mercs lol. That is what Pablo is saying lol.
What I meant with fight eachother when hired to do so is when cells are hired by both sides of the conflict but okay, I see how I wasn't clear with that. Apologies to you Pablo and HBnY.
 

Hepopotan

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If any of this is gonna be solved I think it's up to the devs to make a hierarchy/list of game mechanics relating to the individual player experience. From here, it should separate out what features should remain constant for all players regardless of circumstances (i.e. core combat, ability to access eco terminals) and what mechanics can differ between players to based on their faction background. Then it's a matter of balancing out these factional perks and disadvantages that each has.
 
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Michael Reaper

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Alright so let us talk about the corps and TU then. Corps then shouldn't own colonies by your logic because their income should solely be based on the market. They are to mine, refine, and produce then sell those produced items for a profit. The Corps get different perks in relation to mining, refining, or producing. While competing against other corps. Why would they need a colony? The TU such as a CPC/TDC. They are government factions and should solely be paid through taxes as that is how the government normally works to fund their operations. They get a few different perks as well. Why would they need a colony?
 
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Banjo

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Alright so let us talk about the corps and TU then. Corps then shouldn't own colonies by your logic because their income should solely be based on the market. They are to mine, refine, and produce then sell those produced items for a profit. The Corps get different perks in relation to mining, refining, or producing. While competing against other corps. Why would they need a colony? The TU such as a CPC/TDC. They are government factions and should solely be paid through taxes as that is how the government normally works to fund their operations. They get a few different perks as well. Why would they need a colony?
You are a funny dude, first you refuse to talk about anything that doesn't include FOE and SYN and now you want to talk about CPC/TDC.
 

Michael Reaper

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You are a funny dude, first you refuse to talk about anything that doesn't include FOE and SYN and now you want to talk about CPC/TDC.
You do understand FOE has independent terrorist cells and this clan issue affects us as well right? If GotC can't take a colony because of x reason it means SYN/FOE/GotC can't as well. We are lumped together because of what we all are and do. From what I have seen you keep giving a reason why the clans shouldn't own. But you aren't telling us any real reasons why gov or corps factions should own a colony.
 

HBnY

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I think the final conclusion we made is that since we can make departments conpletely independent from the faction, we suggested that each department has the ownership of said territories instead of being owned by the entire faction
 

Banjo

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You do understand FOE has independent terrorist cells and this clan issue affects us as well right? If GotC can't take a colony because of x reason it means SYN/FOE/GotC can't as well. We are lumped together because of what we all are and do. From what I have seen you keep giving a reason why the clans shouldn't own. But you aren't telling us any real reasons why gov or corps factions should own a colony.
Its been funny, but I'm having a hard time writing to your post that I can only perceive as being trolly.
 

Hepopotan

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The whole reason behind territory/colony ownership is that the faction in power get to tax the resources pulled from said colony with respect to services on world. With corps and government powers the idea of ownership comes normally as these colonies would be ideal as 'public' or 'private' property furthering their goals (maybe lessening tax burdens paid by members to use world services). However, it doesn't make sense for mercs, a combat-orientated faction, to control full colonies and tax services. Yes, this leaves them at a disadvantage, but fleshing out their contracting system to ensure they receive their payout if the terms are met along with *maybe* some form of minor territory control for passive income should be enough to balance them out.
 

Hari Seldon

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Assumption: Territories are smaller sub units similar in scale to how FotD had them.

Letting corps and the TU take both colonies and territories would be a detriment. To fix that i think TDC should mechanically own colonies, and CPC should own territories.
If things are to be more hard-coded then really none of the TU factions have total ownership of colonies, they are subject to the baseline authority of TU law that supersedes any additional laws that they as factions want to place on top. This seems to be the current understanding from story team anyway. The owner remains the TU they are just willing to acknowledge factions swapping across administrative rights. Corporations then are the only ones who should be able to operate at the colony "ownership" level with anything not in their hands being in either TU (player government not agencies) hands or outside the system.

The agency factions really should only administrate territories by default because the US air force owns area 51 not Nevada and the police don't own New York. I am still all for special administrative powers like martial law and lock downs that give the agencies a form of special colony based control but that is still a different thing from "ownership" mostly because of how the revenues issues are approached and intended duration. Things like notYukon and notDeMorgans are again a separate issue as they should nominally not be true colonies.

These get the benefit of the TU infrastructure that automates a lot administrative and particularly revenue based operations.

The none TU factions; SYN and FoE should really only have de facto control over either sub-unit or whole colonies based around subverting or interrupting the automated TU infrastructure presumably with their own infrastructure/deployables placed on infrastructure. A case could be made that any faction should have access to these but wouldn't use them because they are legitimate law abiding TU factions thank you very much *cough cough* though I could see how that would trend to abuse.

To bring it back to the question at hand in the thread then; What is the GotC is in terms of its legitimate TU side? An independent entity/corporation, an agency or something else?

This determines what its rules should be for owning territory in the TU sense.
 
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Michael Reaper

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Assumption: Territories are smaller sub units similar in scale to how FotD had them.



If things are to be more hard-coded then really none of the TU factions have total ownership of colonies, they are subject to the baseline authority of TU law that supersedes any additional laws that they as factions want to place on top. This seems to be the current understanding from story team anyway. The owner remains the TU they are just willing to acknowledge factions swapping across administrative rights. Corporations then are the only ones who should be able to operate at the colony "ownership" level with anything not in their hands being in either TU (player government not agencies) hands or outside the system.

The agency factions really should only administrate territories by default because the US army owns area 51 not Nevada and the police don't own New York. I am still all for special administrative powers like martial law and lock downs that give the agencies a form of special colony based control but that is still a different thing from "ownership" mostly because of how the revenues issues are approached. Things like notYukon and notDeMorgans are again a separate issue as they should nominally not be true colonies.

These get the benefit of the TU infrastructure that automates a lot administrative and particularly revenue based operations.

The none TU factions; SYN and FoE should really only have de facto control over either sub-unit or whole colonies based around subverting for the former or interrupting the automated TU infrastructure presumably with their own infrastructure/deployables placed on infrastructure. A case could be made that any faction should have access to these but wouldn't use them because they are legitimate law abiding TU factions thank you very much *cough cough* though I could see how that would tend to abuse.

To bring it back to the question at hand in the thread then; What the GotC is in terms of its legitimate TU side? An independent entity/corporation, an agency or something else?

This determines what its rules should be for owning territory in the TU sense.
I would have to say I would see them more as a corporation. Because they are paid to fight, it is how they make their main source of income. Most people in that category are going to fight to gain a profit. They are seen as independent contractors. Which work for their bosses the cell leaders. The issue is people forget even construction workers as independent contractors work for a company to be sub contracted by another company.
 

Banjo

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Assumption: Territories are smaller sub units similar in scale to how FotD had them.



If things are to be more hard-coded then really none of the TU factions have total ownership of colonies, they are subject to the baseline authority of TU law that supersedes any additional laws that they as factions want to place on top. This seems to be the current understanding from story team anyway. The owner remains the TU they are just willing to acknowledge factions swapping across administrative rights. Corporations then are the only ones who should be able to operate at the colony "ownership" level with anything not in their hands being in either TU (player government not agencies) hands or outside the system.

The agency factions really should only administrate territories by default because the US air force owns area 51 not Nevada and the police don't own New York. I am still all for special administrative powers like martial law and lock downs that give the agencies a form of special colony based control but that is still a different thing from "ownership" mostly because of how the revenues issues are approached and intended duration. Things like notYukon and notDeMorgans are again a separate issue as they should nominally not be true colonies.

These get the benefit of the TU infrastructure that automates a lot administrative and particularly revenue based operations.

The none TU factions; SYN and FoE should really only have de facto control over either sub-unit or whole colonies based around subverting or interrupting the automated TU infrastructure presumably with their own infrastructure/deployables placed on infrastructure. A case could be made that any faction should have access to these but wouldn't use them because they are legitimate law abiding TU factions thank you very much *cough cough* though I could see how that would trend to abuse.

To bring it back to the question at hand in the thread then; What is the GotC is in terms of its legitimate TU side? An independent entity/corporation, an agency or something else?

This determines what its rules should be for owning territory in the TU sense.
Yes it have been suggested before that TU's economy should be based on taxes and not colony ownership which I also subscribe to. As such I agree that TDC shouldn't "own" colonies for economically purposes, but they should still be an active player in the colony warfare scene to establish "stability". Because what else should the TDC be for.

I don't think Cadonez intended his comment to describe that the TDC should own colonies for economical reasons, or for any extended amount of time for that matter.
 
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BioXide

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Hey there,

Will be making a compilation of most opinions/ideas/suggestions made of faction mechanics/exclusives, etc, from this thread and the other ones that have been talking about faction related stuff. There's a lot of information to sift through and I want to make sure I grab everyone's point of view and see if it's possible to find a middle ground between everyone.

Please continue as there's a lot of very helpful information here that's been making the designing process much easier.
 

Hari Seldon

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Yes it have been suggested before that TU's economy should be based on taxes and not colony ownership which I also subscribe to. As such I agree that TDC shouldn't "own" colonies for economically purposes, but they should still be an active player in the colony warfare scene to establish "stability". Because what else should the TDC be for.
So long as it is understood that not just economic but all administrative control is handled by (local) government when a colony is under direct TU and not corporate control. The only places agency factions should normally have administrative control is the territories that they own within a colony (ie. A police station on the map, an army fort on a planet ect) regardless of if the TU or a corporation owns that colony. Presumably some sort of contract system as might be planned for player businesses would be in order should they want to be on a corporate world, even if a TU law says the corporations have to give 99 year leases for free or some such <-content for people to argue over.

The deployment of the TDC for corporate balance is a matter of policy for the TU leadership.

Also brings up the point that if infrastructure being fought over in whatever the notFBs are is supposed to be a TU system, then really the TU shouldn't need the TDC to stop a corporation controlling the colony. Unless the administrative rights system is a distributed thing and notFBs are just fighting over who owns a bitcoin.
 

Banjo

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So long as it is understood that not just economic but all administrative control is handled by (local) government when a colony is under direct TU and not corporate control. The only places agency factions should normally have administrative control is the territories that they own within a colony (ie. A police station on the map, an army fort on a planet ect) regardless of if the TU or a corporation owns that colony. Presumably some sort of contract system as might be planned for player businesses would be in order should they want to be on a corporate world, even if a TU law says the corporations have to give 99 year leases for free or some such <-content for people to argue over.

The deployment of the TDC for corporate balance is a matter of policy for the TU leadership.

Also brings up the point that if infrastructure being fought over in whatever the notFBs are is supposed to be a TU system, then really the TU shouldn't need the TDC to stop a corporation controlling the colony. Unless the administrative rights system is a distributed thing and notFBs are just fighting over who owns a bitcoin.
This is possibly a bit to indepth at this point, as I don't believe we know what kind of "administrative" controls will be available if any, but I get your point and don't see an immediate reason to dismiss it right now. Regardless of the fluff, it would make sense to have a government faction to have a gameplay influence with the colonies as with the territories to close the circle of interactions. And if TDC doesn't contribute to colony nor territory gameplay then they might aswell be removed.
 
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Tan

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TDC are the military arm of the government, IMO they, along with CPC shouldn't really "own" any colonies a Hari said above. They should have local administrations that dole out law and order, but their main source of income should be the taxes other users pay on whatever they buy.

CPC should run territories OWNED by TU Gov. and TDC should be called in to assist CPC if a situation escalates into riots, outright anarchy or someone tries to take over, but other than that, I honestly don't see a reason why TDC itself should outright own any colonies.

Thoughts?
 
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JeffDillinger

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TDC isn't there to own and exploit colonies, it's the arbiter of the government when corps can't deal with it themselves or when CPC needs backup. I see us taking colonies when the corps mismanage, continiously fight over it destroying all infrastructure and safety or other security reasons.

The TU are never administrators because we don't gain anything from owning colonies, we can be arbiters, taking colonies out of the picture when there's too much going on providing a neutral ground.

Besides the RP reasons, it makes sense to split the TU into CPC and TDC seeing as you need the government to have manpower enough for it to be relevant. By splitting it up you get people who don't want to be cops still in the TU faction.