On the clans

Spark

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TDC isn't there to own and exploit colonies, it's the arbiter of the government when corps can't deal with it themselves or when CPC needs backup. I see us taking colonies when the corps mismanage, continiously fight over it destroying all infrastructure and safety or other security reasons.
Stop giving them arguments for us to be just a CPC department.
 

Tan

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You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

TDC shouldn't outright gain anything from controlling a colony itself. They are on the payroll of the current TU government.

In reality, if Corps can't control a colony, then TDC may be ordered to step in by TU, but the ownership of said colony should not be transferred to them, the government instead should receive ownership. From there, the CPC can patrol the territories under their control or launch a raid on a SYN territory etc and TDC can go back to being the peacekeepers in case of catastrophic war.
 

Ren Astarot

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My opinion is this on the different factions, their "buffs and debuffs" should be focused upon the type of players they wish to attract. I don't think a corporation that mainly deals with mining such as the NSM should beable to rival to the TDC on fire power, but at the same time, TDC shouldn't have anywhere near the same manufacturing capability that any of the corps have as well.

I talked about this on one of the threads I created in which each faction gets different bonuses and draw backs that attract that type of player to a faction, if you want to be a dedicated miner, I don't think you should be encouraged to join TDC or GotC, you should join one of the different corps that focuses on mining.(Like the NSM)

I also think that a Civilian faction should be added and the only faction that you can create new characters in, this faction should be the jack of all trades master at none faction, where they have no buffs, or debuffs. It allows players to mess around and see what they would like to do in MR, and the different factions would recruit out of that civilian pool.

I also strongly believe factions should have things they can and can't do. I do not believe TDC and CPC should beable to create their own gear, instead I think they should have to buy it, then apply a Pmod/modification to "side-grade" it into a TDC or CPC weapon. I do not believe they should have access to anything but the bare minimum mining and production teirs. Instead their money is generated by completing planet wide objectives set by the govnement of that planet. TDC objectives could be very combat focus "Cull Rogue NPCs" or "Clear out FoE nest." CPC can be like "Patrol areas, and keep crime under a certain level."

The corps should have a much weaker combat ability, however they have a stronger eco system, so instead perhaps they get access to builds and deployables that allow them to set up a more complicated mining operation, or factory deployables that allows them to turn out equipment faster.

GotC for example could benefit from a bounty system, in which they perhaps get contracts for individules or groups to help defend certain areas or attack certain areas, and they get X amount of funding per time in that area, and or X amount of funding per kill of a target faction.


These are just some examples to think about.
 

JeffDillinger

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You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

TDC shouldn't outright gain anything from controlling a colony itself. They are on the payroll of the current TU government.

In reality, if Corps can't control a colony, then TDC may be ordered to step in by TU, but the ownership of said colony should not be transferred to them, the government instead should receive ownership. From there, the CPC can patrol the territories under their control or launch a raid on a SYN territory etc and TDC can go back to being the peacekeepers in case of catastrophic war.
I think we completely agree with eachother, however I do not know if there's gonna be a Government "faction", that's why I'm going the route of TDC/CPC owning colonies.
 

Hari Seldon

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I think we completely agree with eachother, however I do not know if there's gonna be a Government "faction", that's why I'm going the route of TDC/CPC owning colonies.
The suggestion runs that if there wasn't a plan already for such a thing; There should be a TU faction that is only staffed by government members (ranks, powers and responsibilities to be determined by the nature of whatever governmental system is created) that does the administration of TU (none corporate) colonies. What administration looks like we don't know but presumably will run to at least things like setting any factional based charges on terminals, drone reactions and door permissions though hopefully much much more.
 

macmardigan

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My opinion is this on the different factions, their "buffs and debuffs" should be focused upon the type of players they wish to attract. I don't think a corporation that mainly deals with mining such as the NSM should beable to rival to the TDC on fire power, but at the same time, TDC shouldn't have anywhere near the same manufacturing capability that any of the corps have as well.

I talked about this on one of the threads I created in which each faction gets different bonuses and draw backs that attract that type of player to a faction, if you want to be a dedicated miner, I don't think you should be encouraged to join TDC or GotC, you should join one of the different corps that focuses on mining.(Like the NSM)

I also think that a Civilian faction should be added and the only faction that you can create new characters in, this faction should be the jack of all trades master at none faction, where they have no buffs, or debuffs. It allows players to mess around and see what they would like to do in MR, and the different factions would recruit out of that civilian pool.

I also strongly believe factions should have things they can and can't do. I do not believe TDC and CPC should beable to create their own gear, instead I think they should have to buy it, then apply a Pmod/modification to "side-grade" it into a TDC or CPC weapon. I do not believe they should have access to anything but the bare minimum mining and production teirs. Instead their money is generated by completing planet wide objectives set by the govnement of that planet. TDC objectives could be very combat focus "Cull Rogue NPCs" or "Clear out FoE nest." CPC can be like "Patrol areas, and keep crime under a certain level."

The corps should have a much weaker combat ability, however they have a stronger eco system, so instead perhaps they get access to builds and deployables that allow them to set up a more complicated mining operation, or factory deployables that allows them to turn out equipment faster.

GotC for example could benefit from a bounty system, in which they perhaps get contracts for individules or groups to help defend certain areas or attack certain areas, and they get X amount of funding per time in that area, and or X amount of funding per kill of a target faction.


These are just some examples to think about.
I disagree with you, this is why:

First: Corps nowadays can control countries by bribing the representatives/dictators that run the country in question. They can permanently hire mercenaries making them effectively their army.
Second: I don't know right now but not too long ago in the States convicts could be made to labor producing things like license plates and other things. Nothing stops the futuristic dystopian government from using this work force for more heavy industry goals. So the TU should be able to produce.

Instead of gimping factions we should decide what is the core that defines a faction and what can it do, regardless of which one it is and then add on top of that the mechanics that define it in comparison to the rest.

Eg: CPC is Generic Faction Perks+ability to arrest/administer the prison + government tax money
AE would be GFP + ability to tax colonies they own + some eco perk that makes them different from the other corps
and so on...
 

Banjo

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I disagree with you, this is why:

First: Corps nowadays can control countries by bribing the representatives/dictators that run the country in question. They can permanently hire mercenaries making them effectively their army.
Second: I don't know right now but not too long ago in the States convicts could be made to labor producing things like license plates and other things. Nothing stops the futuristic dystopian government from using this work force for more heavy industry goals. So the TU should be able to produce.

Instead of gimping factions we should decide what is the core that defines a faction and what can it do, regardless of which one it is and then add on top of that the mechanics that define it in comparison to the rest.

Eg: CPC is Generic Faction Perks+ability to arrest/administer the prison + government tax money
AE would be GFP + ability to tax colonies they own + some eco perk that makes them different from the other corps
and so on...
This is the exact model that fom followed though. I don't think it's clever to follow the same foot prints.
I think it was more then just bad management that made players leave the game.
 

Sawyer Anderson

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I will take the bait; character restricted content is quite normale in MMOs.
Clearly we don't play the same games. The only game I can think of is SWTOR where it's repub/imperial and there's nothing stopping you from having another char in the other faction your going to be limited to ONE in MR.
 

Banjo

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Clearly we don't play the same games. The only game I can think of is SWTOR where it's repub/imperial and there's nothing stopping you from having another char in the other faction your going to be limited to ONE in MR.
Pretty much every mmo has content such as healing restricted to a few characters. Even fom had restrictions with stun guns and arrest being restricted to LED. There are plenty of examples of restricted content. I was not aware that you are only allowed to have one account, but surely faction jumping is allowed.
 

Sawyer Anderson

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Pretty much every mmo has content such as healing restricted to a few characters. Even fom had restrictions with stun guns and arrest being restricted to LED. There are plenty of examples of restricted content. I was not aware that you are only allowed to have one account, but surely faction jumping is allowed.
In examples like WoW and SWTOR you can have multiple chars so healing being restricted is a moot point no one is going to faction hop just to do basic things like produce gear your simply going to have people like Pablo and myself do what FoM did and make multiple accounts. So at the end of the day the guy with the most money wins? Like that's just bad game design.
 

Banjo

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In examples like WoW and SWTOR you can have multiple chars so healing being restricted is a moot point no one is going to faction hop just to do basic things like produce gear your simply going to have people like Pablo and myself do what FoM did and make multiple accounts. So at the end of the day the guy with the most money wins? Like that's just bad game design.
I thought we were discussing territories and to an extend colonies in this thread.
I don't see anyone suggesting to restrict "basic things", so far I have seen people suggest to restrict highend weapons and production. And divide up corps to competing over colonies and clans to compete over territories, with the government having a corrupt finger in both pies, and mercs being mercs swinging their dicks around from all sides hiring them.
From what I see these suggestions point not towards having to faction jump, but having to interact with the other players. This is reasonable as mercs goal shouldn't be to produce a big stockpile of pizza burger for war, just like a cops goal shouldn't be to be at the top of the most wanted list. Each faction provides an overarching playstyle, where you should be able to fulfil all your needs within that playstyle, meaning that you as a merc shouldn't have to eco your own gear. Sure you can do some ammo or weapon production in your downtime if you want, but your gameplay loop shouldn't rely on self-sustainability.

I expect your "most money wins" comment refers to having to buy the game for more accounts. Should hopefully be avoidable if the game is balanced so each faction can have fun within their own gameplay style, and only needs to faction jump once you get bored after a couple of months maybe.

It seems to me that many people see their faction as an end all be all entity, where they are representing their faction to beat all other factions. I believe this to be a wrong ideology for the game, as it removes all the uniqueness of the faction setup and RP material. Without this uniqueness, the game might as well just be a TDM of random player organisations, like planetside or eve online.
 
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Meliarion

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I thought we were discussing territories and to an extend colonies in this thread.
I don't see anyone suggesting to restrict "basic things", so far I have seen people suggest to restrict highend weapons and production. And divide up corps to competing over colonies and clans to compete over territories, with the government having a corrupt finger in both pies, and mercs being mercs swinging their dicks around from all sides hiring them.
From what I see these suggestions point not towards having to faction jump, but having to interact with the other players. This is reasonable as mercs goal shouldn't be to produce a big stockpile of pizza burger for war, just like a cops goal shouldn't be to be at the top of the most wanted list. Each faction provides an overarching playstyle, where you should be able to fulfil all your needs within that playstyle, meaning that you as a merc shouldn't have to eco your own gear. Sure you can do some ammo or weapon production in your downtime if you want, but your gameplay loop shouldn't rely on self-sustainability.

I expect your "most money wins" comment refers to having to buy the game for more accounts. Should hopefully be avoidable if the game is balanced so each faction can have fun within their own gameplay style, and only needs to faction jump once you get bored after a couple of months maybe.

It seems to me that many people see their faction as an end all be all entity, where they are representing their faction to beat all other factions. I believe this to be a wrong ideology for the game, as it removes all the uniqueness of the faction setup and RP material. Without this uniqueness, the game might as well just be a TDM of random player organisations, like planetside or eve online.
Part of this issue is that you need to work out what winning means. What does winning mean to a merc? To a corp? To the government? To the other clans?
If you can't get the factions to have their own cultures, their own goals and pathways towards achieving that then they are just going to play the same. This is primarily a cultural issue and in the absence of any strong culture or factional aim then people are just going to fall back to kill everyone and take everything. Building this culture is hard and requires well thought out factions and HC who understand what there faction's role is, trying to just force it with some game mechanic restrictions will cause people to gravitate to the more fun factions, with a few alts in the others to provide their bonuses.

If you want the game to be about more than just killing people and trying to dominate the starmap then you need to build and grow a playerbase who care about doing that
 
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Ren Astarot

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Here a silly idea, based upon policies and actions of the players and HC an the faction, a bunch of sliders could move that will slowly unlock new shit while slowly locking them out of other things. Example:

Eco <> Combat slider

The further you slide the slider to combat through faction missions and wars, that you start unlocking things like weapon modifications, deployable defense structures, but in turn they slide away from the eco side, so they don't have access to deployable eco structures and advanced manufacturing. (Of course basic manufacturing and mining should always be open to allow the slider to be adjusted back.)

What I am concern with the idea of "we need to keep all the factions mechanically the same but lore wise difference." Is that the game will devolve into Eve online null sec. Where for 95% of the players it about how much space you can control, and how many kills you can get onto your killboard...
 
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Michael Reaper

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Here a silly idea, based upon policies and actions of the players and HC an the faction, a bunch of sliders could move that will slowly unlock new shit while slowly locking them out of other things. Example:

Eco <> Combat slider

The further you slide the slider to combat through faction missions and wars, that you start unlocking things like weapon modifications, deployable defense structures, but in turn they slide away from the eco side, so they don't have access to deployable eco structures and advanced manufacturing. (Of course basic manufacturing and mining should always be open to allow the slider to be adjusted back.)

What I am concern with the idea of "we need to keep all the factions mechanically the same but lore wise difference." Is that the game will devolve into Eve online null sec. Where for 95% of the players it about how much space you can control, and how many kills you can get onto your killboard...
That is not the worst idea. It would seem pretty even and keep a mechanical balance because if you are in war mode you can't eco. Which also limits the amount of gear one would gather without buying it from another faction. Creating a win/lose on the war effort. When in an non war state you could be producing to build your income and factional equipment.
 

Ren Astarot

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That is not the worst idea. It would seem pretty even and keep a mechanical balance because if you are in war mode you can't eco. Which also limits the amount of gear one would gather without buying it from another faction. Creating a win/lose on the war effort. When in an non war state you could be producing to build your income and factional equipment.
I used Eco and Combat as a simple example slider, Reality is, I sorta see it broken down into many different sliders that all have...Individually, minor effects, that build up to create a vastly different experience from faction to faction based on where those sliders are. Also, if such a process actually does get added, I hope that it would take a least a month of dedicated effort from the faction to get a slider to move from one side to the other, that way factions have some sort of stable foundation it sits upon, and you don't have to worry about being gone for a few days, and the faction you are part of goes from a syndicate drug manufacturer to a "law" enforcement group
 
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Michael Reaper

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I used Eco and Combat as a simple example slider, Reality is, I sorta see it broken down into many different sliders that all have...Individually, minor effects, that build up to create a vastly different experience from faction to faction based on where those sliders are. Also, if such a process actually does get added, I hope that it would take a least a month of dedicated effort from the faction to get a slider to move from one side to the other, that way factions have some sort of stable foundation it sits upon, and you don't have to worry about being gone for a few days, and the faction you are part of goes from a syndicate drug manufacturer to a "law" enforcement group
Ya true but it brings the equality of the factions in the mechanical side so it was a pretty good idea.
 

Banjo

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Part of this issue is that you need to work out what winning means. What does winning mean to a merc? To a corp? To the government? To the other clans?
If you can't get the factions to have their own cultures, their own goals and pathways towards achieving that then they are just going to play the same. This is primarily a cultural issue and in the absence of any strong culture or factional aim then people are just going to fall back to kill everyone and take everything. Building this culture is hard and requires well thought out factions and HC who understand what there faction's role is, trying to just force it with some game mechanic restrictions will cause people to gravitate to the more fun factions, with a few alts in the others to provide their bonuses.

If you want the game to be about more than just killing people and trying to dominate the starmap then you need to build and grow a playerbase who care about doing that
Forming the goals of the factions is what game mechanics are for, and why it's important that GOTC has game mechanics to support their playstyle. The goal of Tetris is to stack as many blocks as possible, reinforced by mechanics that reward you for filling out whole rows, and punish you for being lazy with a game over. The "goal" of MMORPGs is to get stronger, reinforced by levelling systems. The goal of call of duty is to beat the other team, reinforced with match setups, killboards, points and even kill streaks. The goal of monopoly is to take all the money from the other players, reinforced by mechanics for taking money from those players when they land on your cities.
Game mechanics are what forms the goal of the game and is the way to encourage people to play certain ways. Culture is a by-product of peoples action, and people are highly unreliable as seen with FOM with endless quotes of miss management, bad leadership and community killers (true or not). FOM devolved into a power ranger faction TDM, because it was the only fundamental goal the mechanics allowed for. Without proper GM oversight, it was this state it naturally came to.

Here a silly idea, based upon policies and actions of the players and HC an the faction, a bunch of sliders could move that will slowly unlock new shit while slowly locking them out of other things. Example:

Eco <> Combat slider

The further you slide the slider to combat through faction missions and wars, that you start unlocking things like weapon modifications, deployable defense structures, but in turn they slide away from the eco side, so they don't have access to deployable eco structures and advanced manufacturing. (Of course basic manufacturing and mining should always be open to allow the slider to be adjusted back.)

What I am concern with the idea of "we need to keep all the factions mechanically the same but lore wise difference." Is that the game will devolve into Eve online null sec. Where for 95% of the players it about how much space you can control, and how many kills you can get onto your killboard...
This is what FOTD did, although not with sliders but in the style of customizing faction perks into a specific playstyle.
The flaw with this system is that it doesn't make sense with the current setup of 8 hardcoded factions, because taking any of the factions away from their style (corp, clan, gov, merc) would make no sense. While it's plausible in a setting where the factions are more generic or where factions are dynamically created it won't fit into mankind reborn as it would change the fundamentals about the 8 hardcoded factions set up with highly specialised purposes.
 

Ren Astarot

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This is what FOTD did, although not with sliders but in the style of customizing faction perks into a specific playstyle.
The flaw with this system is that it doesn't make sense with the current setup of 8 hardcoded factions, because taking any of the factions away from their style (corp, clan, gov, merc) would make no sense. While it's plausible in a setting where the factions are more generic or where factions are dynamically created it won't fit into mankind reborn as it would change the fundamentals about the 8 hardcoded factions set up with highly specialised purposes.
The problem we are running into is that no one willing to compromise to make have their faction more in line with the lore, I don't believe TDC, CPC, or GotC should be manufacturers, I think that should be the corp's jobs and visversa, I do not thing Corps should have the same level of combat staying power as TDC, CPC, or GotC. However, I think a hard coded slider system that is effected based upon policy selections, AND player interaction should have an effect on the faction, also I believe that it will allow players and their leaders to have more agency over their factions. If the faction leaders want to discourage people from ecoing to prevent them from losing combat buffs/deployables, then uncheck the box that says "Give out eco missions to faction members." You want your faction to be more Eco and less combat? Uncheck "patrol routes." However, I think it should have a deeper break down than that, for example: Lawful <> Lawless factions that are more lawful may get deployables that helps CPC do their job(like security cameras), or if they go lawless, get deployables that help they syndicate do their own job and add corruption, like Security bypass deployable.

I am not of the opinion that players should zero agency over their faction, If people want to push their faction to be more eco or more combat focus or some other focus, then they should have that ability to do so, but at a consequence of doing so in a semi reasonable amount of time(Perhaps it takes 2 to 3 months for an entire faction to beable to shift over from combat focus to Eco focus.) I'm also opinion that the mechanics should have a consequence to other factions as well, if everyone goes combat focus, then no one can build the advance stuff, you won't see specialized trauma kits, or advance weapons, if every corp goes Lawless, so that they can help sydicate, then the consequence is that CPC has a harder time enforcing the law when someone steals shit from you, but on the flip side, Your group will have to work on keeping their "crime points" low to prevent lawlessness from taking over.
 
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