Playtest discussion, feedback, etc

BioXide

Founder

Staff member
Lead Developer
Management
Jun 1, 2017
482
Beaverton, Oregon
Guns of the Conclave
Rank: Princeps (R7)
Service Points: 999999
As you may or may not know, we have a donator playtest going on right now 24/7 which just recently wiped and opened up the servers for all $35+ donators. We'll be keeping the playtest going for the entire month and likely longer depending on how it performs and the player counts. In order to consolidate information better let's move most of the discussions taking place in discord and have them here.

Feel free to discuss anything related to the playtest here, be it regular chat or giving feedback.
 

Sam Lysander

Taxpayer

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Oct 23, 2018
39
Arizona
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: Daimyo (R6)
Service Points: 0
Phoenix you were blocked for abusing the faction chat.
 

Wilbon

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
77
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
Think maybe a slight increase in payout and/or an increase in required materials for refining/production contracts. When you factor in transport costs and vort costs and do some of these ones that are worth like 4k UC, you're hardly breaking even sometimes when you've got to transfer a number of things to one central location and vort around to start processes on worlds that have the resources you need.

And the general low amount of UC you make even if you get one where you can profit is so low, its almost not worth doing past the fresh account/broke as shit stage. Upping the required amount of items may be the better way because then you'll actually have to spend more time investing into the contract but get a bigger reward naturally.
_____

I also think a nerf would be nice for the cost of listing an item on the market. At current, the listing price almost always eats your income for 1 of the items you list. Put up 20 things for 10k, the listing price is 12k. Assuming you sell out, 1 of those items is basically just to cover listing cost. But if you don't sell out, its a complete net loss. With only 72 hours as the max listing time, it can be difficult to sell out of some things in adequate time.
 
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Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
125
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
Think maybe a slight increase in payout and/or an increase in required materials for refining/production contracts. When you factor in transport costs and vort costs and do some of these ones that are worth like 4k UC, you're hardly breaking even sometimes when you've got to transfer a number of things to one central location and vort around to start processes on worlds that have the resources you need.

And the general low amount of UC you make even if you get one where you can profit is so low, its almost not worth doing past the fresh account/broke as shit stage. Upping the required amount of items may be the better way because then you'll actually have to spend more time investing into the contract but get a bigger reward naturally.
_____

I also think a nerf would be nice for the cost of listing an item on the market. At current, the listing price almost always eats your income for 1 of the items you list. Put up 20 things for 10k, the listing price is 12k. Assuming you sell out, 1 of those items is basically just to cover listing cost. But if you don't sell out, its a complete net loss. With only 72 hours as the max listing time, it can be difficult to sell out of some things in adequate time.
The contracts are not meant to make you money that should be the faction payouts and other activites they are you assist with supplement income.

As for the market let me again confirm that taxs are theft and that the TU should be abolished immediately at release or we should start up an underground trading empire.
 

Wilbon

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
77
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
The contracts are not meant to make you money that should be the faction payouts and other activites they are you assist with supplement income.
No the point of the contracts ARE to make you some money and keep players engaged on a solo level. It's content that someone can partake in without needing to associate with others. And in gaming, especially in MMO's, people want to partake in activities that progress them. It's also daily repeatable content.

It's not supposed to be a get rich quick scheme, but it should still be remotely profitable for players. If you log in and just do a few hours of dailies like every mmo ever, you should still be able to make an income. But that income will never compete with someone who does his dailies, does missions with his faction, and has some sort of hustle as well.

As for the market let me again confirm that taxs are theft and that the TU should be abolished immediately at release or we should start up an underground trading empire.
100% agree.
 

Chip Lawrie

Lead Game Writer

Staff member
Jun 1, 2017
767
Manhattan
Terran Defense Corps
Rank: Game Master
Service Points: 800813
In regards to the contracts, they exist to provide some form of solo play, someone who logs in and does a few contracts and logs off again shouldn't be making the same money as someone who engages in multiplay, while it should make money it shouldn't make you more than fringe survival money - we want to encourage players (especially eco players) to work as factions for profits. If you can give us some numbers for how much you get profit per item wise that'd be nice because hard numbers are best to balance around, esp when it comes to stuff like survival necessities and insurance and the like.

In regards to sales taxes - local and national governments should be able to adjust them ingame, timer lengths are something interesting, given that we don't particularly want people to stick items on the market forever/want to encourage player businesses and player contracts what do you guys think timer lengths should be?
 

Scavy

Dilettante

Bronzed Donator
Alpha Tester
Jan 31, 2019
89
Terran Defense Corps
Rank: Major (R5)
Service Points: 0
I'd say three days. If you cannot sell your item within three days you probably need to reevaluate your business strategy but its long enough that you're not bothered by having to constantly refresh it.

Looking for profit numbers are going to be hard in short bursts playtests, needs to be enough time where we can create an economy and create a PVP meta.
 

Sam Lysander

Taxpayer

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Oct 23, 2018
39
Arizona
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: Daimyo (R6)
Service Points: 0
Ive already been compiling numbers for profits, for contracts and simply market sales etc, already have spreadsheets setup for that with all factors of cost included. It doesnt take much to get the numbers, just the patience to pop them in the right list. The contracts have already seen an adjustment from said feedback on the numbers we have already gathered. That being said the mining ones are a bit low, I took 5 mining contracts with a total net of maybe 3k UC? Arguably tossing trash bags in a dumpster will get you that money with a lot less effort and time invested, so on that standpoint it probably needs an increase.

We have run numbers on ecoing and market sales and quite obviously, you make a lot more money doing that, but contracts should provide more UC per time invested than throwing garbage in a bin.
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
125
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
Who is this sam guy and who authorized him to compile numbers on the economy that's trade secrets bruh
 

Wilbon

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
77
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
I fully understand that the contracts are not meant to be a solo path to pure success. But even a new player guided to engaging in that activity for learning will quickly get bored of them if they gain nothing from doing them. Which is the current problem. Which is why I suggest an increase in income. Because it's not survival money if you're staying stagnant. I could also not log into the game and survive with stagnant finances. If there's no profit to contracts, nobody is going to do them because there's no progression. But of course it can't be too much because it shouldn't be a way to get rich easily.

Modern MMO's use a dailies system where completing activities gain you rewards in profit so even if that's the only thing you do, you still have to dedicate anywhere from 1-3 hours a day to do them and you only make a minor profit. But it's still progression and you can do it on your own. And the person that does that will never compete with the guy doing the same and engaging in his faction and exploring other business opportunities.

It's hard to provide hard numbers because each refinement/production contract is different as they all have their own associated costs, taxes, and so on. In addition, there's only about 5 of them per day and no set schedule.

However when you consider the costs of:
  • Mining
  • Refining
  • Production [dont forget your pmods cost]
  • Transport [to a central location for refinement]
  • Vorting [to different worlds to acquire resources]
And taxes (currently on 1%) on top of almost all of those, it leaves very little room for gain. It's also not scaleable beyond the first few days of playing, currently.
____________________

As for the listing price thing, that's a bit easier and have an example to use. I produced 20 rifles to sell, split across two worlds. To put 10 of those rifles up for 10k each, it costs 12.5k UC. Now do that twice.

For 25K, I've listed my 20 weapons. I now have to sell 3 of them just to break even on my listing cost. Not to mention, that remainder 5K from the 3rd one is only going to cover say my production cost of that rifle. So now I'm in the hole 10K UC (prod costs of the other 2 rifles) still so I have to have a 4th sold to cover that.

4/20 rifles have to be sold just to re-cooperate my losses in the start. Then I can start profiting. This has scaled down to ammunition and armor as well. This doesn't include my cost for transporting my items (which have the highest transport costs cause finalized). This is all being done at the max listing time of 72 hours.

Now that gap is more significant the more items you put up and obviously relevant to cost.

If the listing cost wasn't so hard cut into your profits, then a max of 72 hours wouldn't be bad at all. In this case I would argue that a nerf to listing cost would mean you could keep the current listing time. But it doesn't seem right that you should donate a considerable amount of income just to put something up for sale for other people.

Player-to-player interaction is nice, but not everyone can do that with timezones and life schedules. And there will always be a place for player-contracts and player-businesses as they'll be able to provide you what you want for cheaper (no market taxes, negotiation, print-to-order, etc.)

Having a market system isn't a bad thing and having it viable is a good thing. New players are not going to like the idea that the markets are barren and not know why until they learn that it's because putting things on the market is a worse idea than keeping it in your storage until you can find a buyer (through forums, ig chats, ads, contracts, etc).
 
Last edited:

Sam Lysander

Taxpayer

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Oct 23, 2018
39
Arizona
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: Daimyo (R6)
Service Points: 0
At least my spreadsheet didnt get shared with the community...
 

Scavy

Dilettante

Bronzed Donator
Alpha Tester
Jan 31, 2019
89
Terran Defense Corps
Rank: Major (R5)
Service Points: 0
We still have the spreadsheets from the old playtest, jokes on you!
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
125
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
I fully understand that the contracts are not meant to be a solo path to pure success. But even a new player guided to engaging in that activity for learning will quickly get bored of them if they gain nothing from doing them. Which is the current problem. Which is why I suggest an increase in income. Because it's not survival money if you're staying stagnant. I could also not log into the game and survive with stagnant finances. If there's no profit to contracts, nobody is going to do them because there's no progression. But of course it can't be too much because it shouldn't be a way to get rich easily.

Modern MMO's use a dailies system where completing activities gain you rewards in profit so even if that's the only thing you do, you still have to dedicate anywhere from 1-3 hours a day to do them and you only make a minor profit. But it's still progression and you can do it on your own. And the person that does that will never compete with the guy doing the same and engaging in his faction and exploring other business opportunities.

It's hard to provide hard numbers because each refinement/production contract is different as they all have their own associated costs, taxes, and so on. In addition, there's only about 5 of them per day and no set schedule.

However when you consider the costs of:
  • Mining
  • Refining
  • Production
  • Transport [to a central location for refinement]
  • Vorting [to different worlds to acquire resources]
And taxes (currently on 1%) on top of almost all of those, it leaves very little room for gain. It's also not scaleable beyond the first few days of playing, currently.
____________________

As for the listing price thing, that's a bit easier and have an example to use. I produced 20 rifles to sell, split across two worlds. To put 10 of those rifles up for 10k each, it costs 12.5k UC. Now do that twice.

For 25K, I've listed my 20 weapons. I now have to sell 3 of them just to break even on my listing cost. Not to mention, that remainder 5K from the 3rd one is only going to cover say my production cost of that rifle. So now I'm in the hole 10K UC (prod costs of the other 2 rifles) still so I have to have a 4th sold to cover that.

4/20 rifles have to be sold just to re-cooperate my losses in the start. Then I can start profiting. This has scaled down to ammunition and armor as well. This doesn't include my cost for transporting my items (which have the highest transport costs cause finalized). This is all being done at the max listing time of 72 hours.

Now that gap is more significant the more items you put up and obviously relevant to cost.

If the listing cost wasn't so hard cut into your profits, then a max of 72 hours wouldn't be bad at all. In this case I would argue that a nerf to listing cost would mean you could keep the current listing time. But it doesn't seem right that you should donate a considerable amount of income just to put something up for sale for other people.

Player-to-player interaction is nice, but not everyone can do that with timezones and life schedules. And there will always be a place for player-contracts and player-businesses as they'll be able to provide you what you want for cheaper (no market taxes, negotiation, print-to-order, etc.)

Having a market system isn't a bad thing and having it viable is a good thing. New players are not going to like the idea that the markets are barren and not know why until they learn that it's because putting things on the market is a worse idea than keeping it in your storage until you can find a buyer (through forums, ig chats, ads, contracts, etc).
There shouldn't be a listing price there should be a sales tax eve attempted a listing price and it failed because no one would use the market however a tax on the player purchasing the item would have the desired effect.


We still have the spreadsheets from the old playtest, jokes on you!
They still out of date.
 

Wilbon

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
77
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
There shouldn't be a listing price there should be a sales tax eve attempted a listing price and it failed because no one would use the market however a tax on the player purchasing the item would have the desired effect.
This seems logical and more strategic as well, as one then accommodates their pricing for the current market taxes rather than a blanket cost to listing them.
 
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Reactions: Sawyer Anderson

Sam Lysander

Taxpayer

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Oct 23, 2018
39
Arizona
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: Daimyo (R6)
Service Points: 0
Yeah the listing price right now is crippling and a bit of a deterrent to pursue the market at all. There should be just a tax deductable when you go to rake in your profits instead. I believe this is how it was way back in the day but im a little foggy on it. That way theres still a cash sink ish in there somewhere, and the owners of the territories where the markets are still get money from your use of their property.
 

BioXide

Founder

Staff member
Lead Developer
Management
Jun 1, 2017
482
Beaverton, Oregon
Guns of the Conclave
Rank: Princeps (R7)
Service Points: 999999
Excellent feedback guys keep it coming, will be adjusting the markets
 

Wilbon

Dilettante

Supporting Donator
Dec 20, 2018
77
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: None
Service Points: 0
For a thread example, I did the quest for 6 paragon patroller helmets for 6142 UC. I had some of the required resources but it still took about 30 minutes to get the rest. It costed me about 3861 to produce them and my vortex tickets to get around (no transport costs cause i carried resources).

My profit from that ~30 production contract was 2,281‬ UC.
 

Chip Lawrie

Lead Game Writer

Staff member
Jun 1, 2017
767
Manhattan
Terran Defense Corps
Rank: Game Master
Service Points: 800813
So taxation and adjustments around that will need to be looked at. I agree that a sales tax makes more sense than a 'pre-sales tax' - I expect eventually we'll have a mix of the two the tax as the Union's cut and an adjustable fixed fee (say 0-500UC per item) as a territory owner's listing tax.

Regarding the contracts - I get what people are saying (and I certainly agree that mining should net more profit than trash collection). My view of the solo-play options is that they should provide a 'living-wage' as it were, balanced around being able to pay insurance, rent, food etc. That said I agree that there should be some progression, some of which will need to be thought out.

30mins to produce just over 2,000UC doesn't seem that bad for a solo-player tbh, ofc couldn't tell you what a Peacekeeper is going for on the markets atm since my pc in in the repair shop and my laptop has less processing power than my toaster. In regards to long term plans if we have an average of 2,000UC for every 30mins of contract work and assume that of the average 7hrs a week a person plays 2 are spent in MR doing 'dailies' they'd make around 8,000UC. If the costs to this player who plays for 2hrs a week are around 6,000UC he's 'progressing' at 2,000UC a week, which puts him in the underclass. If engaging in faction play for those 2hrs nets him 10,000UC and his costs remain the same he doubles his weekly bank account gain which encourages faction play...