Playtest discussion, feedback, etc

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

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Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
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Oda Zaibatsu
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So taxation and adjustments around that will need to be looked at. I agree that a sales tax makes more sense than a 'pre-sales tax' - I expect eventually we'll have a mix of the two the tax as the Union's cut and an adjustable fixed fee (say 0-500UC per item) as a territory owner's listing tax.

Regarding the contracts - I get what people are saying (and I certainly agree that mining should net more profit than trash collection). My view of the solo-play options is that they should provide a 'living-wage' as it were, balanced around being able to pay insurance, rent, food etc. That said I agree that there should be some progression, some of which will need to be thought out.

30mins to produce just over 2,000UC doesn't seem that bad for a solo-player tbh, ofc couldn't tell you what a Peacekeeper is going for on the markets atm since my pc in in the repair shop and my laptop has less processing power than my toaster. In regards to long term plans if we have an average of 2,000UC for every 30mins of contract work and assume that of the average 7hrs a week a person plays 2 are spent in MR doing 'dailies' they'd make around 8,000UC. If the costs to this player who plays for 2hrs a week are around 6,000UC he's 'progressing' at 2,000UC a week, which puts him in the underclass. If engaging in faction play for those 2hrs nets him 10,000UC and his costs remain the same he doubles his weekly bank account gain which encourages faction play...

The problem with a living wage is that it adjust as the market adjust aslong as it does end up like before the eco fix EVE or FOTD FoM where the market was just trashed and prices where high. This requires you to adjust the contracts as the markets adjust. On the offset 2000 uc in the current market nets you what 1 gun and maybe 2 mags of ammo good luck.
 
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Sam Lysander

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Oct 23, 2018
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It would certainly encourage faction pay if we manage to get the contracts to actually progress minimal amounts. Right now though with the costs associated with ecoing any form of basic gear or anything really to be purchased off of the market for these players who do solo play. It would take them 3 days of dailies to purchase a rifle that doesnt come with any ammunition. So we as a community will have to adjust these parameters a bit, because the cost to actually make some of this is still way out of reach for those basic players currently, and I feel as though it shouldnt take you 3 days of contracts to purchase an empty rifle. The stuff gets expensive.

So as they sit right now they need work. Im not disagreeing on your point that it should most definitely be a barely livable lifestyle, I actually agree wholly on that. Im just saying that we are going to have to tweak numbers to ensure we are actually getting that result. Current state of the system right now, we are not.
 

Wilbon

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Dec 20, 2018
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Players don't need to be enticed to factional play, because factional content is and will always be one of the main reasons people want to play MR. Whether you want to be part of the cops, the crooks, a businessman, a rebel, whatever the case may be, it's possible and will lead people here. That on top of a better income from faction play and the more opportunities that arise from doing it - not including the social aspect; that's not the part that needs extra help getting encouragement.

But there is no point adding a solo-play system to the game if you're not going to support that play style. If your weekly take home is anywhere from 2k UC to 8K uc depending on how dedicated to doing dailies you are, that's not even worth your time doing it, nor the math and brain power organizing to do it. Ecoing is already atrocious in terms of entertainment and for a new player learning the ropes, the last thing they want to do is feel like what they're doing is boring and not really benefiting them much.

The point of the contracts system is supposed to be an optional way to play solo, regardless if you're a new player of veteran. If you want to just step back from the factional/social stuff and just chill out on your own, you can do some basic contracts and get a bit of extra UC out of it.

The current price of a peacekeeper is irrelevant as it's a playtest with very different variables currently. But at present the current income from solo contracts is so little that it's not viable for the current eco climate, and I don't think there's any intention of making things much cheaper and more available.
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IMO; the part to hone in on is balancing it so that the system means that a weeks worth of doing dailies will net you an okay amount relative to the work put in.
 

Wilbon

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Would also like to add that for the purpose of the playtest, it's not a bad idea to temporarily make contract income a bit beefy as well because there is no factional income or other mechanics for income. Sure, you can sell on the market but the market is a two-way street and you need buyers with funds to be able to buy merch, which in the current contract climate a bit tedious to earn.

But that's something you can do once this thing goes advertised and until then try to find a balance.
 

Chip Lawrie

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Jun 1, 2017
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On the offset 2000 uc in the current market nets you what 1 gun and maybe 2 mags of ammo good luck.
Seems about right for 30mins work. Not everyone in MR should be running around in heavy armour with high damage energy weapons. Ecoers and poorer players should be running around with handguns and maybe some light armour rather than the FoM paradigm of everyone armed to the teeth in heavy armour all the time. Obviously this affects a disproportionate number of people in a pre-alpha with no other means of income. Now given there are minimal other costs atm (no apartment rents, survival mechanics, or insurance etc) the numbers will obviously have to change as other mechanics are added or adjusted.

Im just saying that we are going to have to tweak numbers to ensure we are actually getting that result. Current state of the system right now, we are not.
So a lot of this depends on what people consider a livable lifestyle, we will definitely have to tweak numbers both during this playtest and during future playtests as mechanics and playstyles become viable. I'd define a livable lifestyle as being the ability to pay apartment rent, pay for basic insurance, pay any survival costs, pay for some travel, and pay for a replacement of the most basic equipment (pistol and light armour) with some playing around/upgrading money left over. The amount left as playing around/upgrading money is probably where the difference between crushing poverty and upliftable poverty lies and probably where iteration will most effect the 'feel' of the dailies.

IMO; the part to hone in on is balancing it so that the system means that a weeks worth of doing dailies will net you an okay amount relative to the work put in.
I agree with you here, but that depends heavilly on what you consider to be a 'weeks worth' I'd argue that the average player shouldn't get rich off doing dailies. A guy who does two hours of dailies a week shouldn't be affording a penthouse opposite the Caucus I'm sure we can all agree on that. This is where my point above to Sam comes in that the balance lies in the 'playing around money' after necessary costs are met (obv the definition of necessary costs is also arguable). Atm from the discussion it seems that the current contract rewards seem to tend towards the crushing end of the poverty spectrum rather than the upliftable end (and I expect this is particularly effecting the combatant players opposed to the ecoers).


Would also like to add that for the purpose of the playtest, it's not a bad idea to temporarily make contract income a bit beefy as well because there is no factional income or other mechanics for income. Sure, you can sell on the market but the market is a two-way street and you need buyers with funds to be able to buy merch, which in the current contract climate a bit tedious to earn.
This is a good point - especially since there are no other forms of basic income (which is one of the reasons I expect the poverty feels so crushing)
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

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No one is saying make 100 k using contracts however you want someone to use their whole 2k a day-week to buy 2 mags for comba/etc it's not going to work that's like buying one battle worth of ammo in eve for a whole week.
 

Wilbon

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Once you add things such as apartment fees, insurance, travel, and other 'bills' that will eventually pull money from players, those things will make that living wage type feeling. IMHO; the solo contracts for veteran players that have those bills should be the purpose for them to do them. Doing daily contracts for the purpose of earning enough to pay these recurring fees you have for your status and luxuries.

For a newer player with none of these? That should mean it winds up being a bit more profitable but a newer player will have a lot more to buy and invest in then an established player will so that money will likely dry up quickly as well. And then once they too build a 'status' with apartments, insurance, etc they will transition into an established character - in which the contracts serve the purpose of being a way to pay their bills.

That is, if the bills are enticing enough to get players to acquire those things, instead of vets just going without apartments/insurance/etc and raking in the loot. That's going to take a bit of discussion to figure out how to balance that aspect.
 

Wilbon

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Discovered cost imbalance for bio:
  • The creation of an MDS Peacekeeper 7 costs 1,204 UC to create.
  • The creation of an Krepkiy Hacksaw costs 1,282 UC to create.
A fully automatic submachine gun currently costs 78 more UC / unit to produce than a semi-automatic handgun. The Peacekeeper has 10.5 health damage vs the hacksaw's 4 damage.
 

Wilbon

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Not an urgent priority but a point a couple of us have discussed and agreed upon: Services on UC may benefit to be shuffled around a bit/added.
  • Default node takes you to the closest node to a market terminal (bank) but those terminals are hidden behind walls behind the players default orientation. I think the market terminals and public storage terminals should be fairly easy to see, find, and access when you first load into UC.
  • The apartments in syndicate alley could use storage terminals, not necessarily inside apartments (obviously) but just outside/in the lobby that anyone could access would be nice. There's some in the fake apartment complex but none in the real ones.
  • Public service contracts in the underground somewhere would be neato. In general more locations for those terminals on every world as some worlds only have 1 or none.
Likely more to come, train of thought lost and others went afk lol.
 

Hepopotan

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Jul 24, 2017
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Are faction pools gonna be a thing again? If so, there should be contracts to encourage eco'ers to contribute to the pool, maybe make it a small net profit that wouldn't match the amount they'd make on the market so it doesn't interfere with the economy too much. Also should have cool downs for taking stuff out/rank restrictions.
 

Hepopotan

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That'd be better probably because faction pools when I played would be filled with random shit and like a ragtag set of incomplete armor and ammo.