Production License Expiration

[BioXide]

Hello,

As I wrap up some refactoring with the production system, I wanted to bring up this conversation to see what the community thinks about the current implementation of production license expiration.

When you purchase a production license, you get unlimited uses of that pmod for a month or two, after that the license will expire and you'll have to repurchase it in order to continue producing that item. I'm currently leaning towards removing that and going with permanent licenses like in FoM, you purchase the license once and it will never expire, at the same time the price for licenses will increase.

Production license cost is based on the aggregated cost of production of the item times a multiplier, outlined below.
/** Base module cost gets multiplied by this for license cost for regular items. */ #define PMOD_REGULAR_LICENSE_MULTIPLIER 4.5 /** Base module cost gets multiplied by this for license cost for ammo items. */ #define PMOD_AMMO_LICENSE_MULTIPLIER 12 /** Base module cost gets multiplied by this for license cost for deployable items. */ #define PMOD_DEPLOYABLE_LICENSE_MULTIPLIER 2.5 /** Base module cost gets multiplied by this for license cost for consumable items. */ #define PMOD_CONSUMABLE_LICENSE_MULTIPLIER 13 /** Base module cost gets multiplied by this for license cost for hack items. */ #define PMOD_HACK_LICENSE_MULTIPLIER 11

What do you guys think, should we:
- Keep the current expiring production licenses
- Remove it, go back to FoM's production licenses
- Something else?

 

[Egroeg]

I'll start by saying I think anyway is fine, at least for me, I eco a bit but I felt I never cared, ill make it work, but maybe that's because I feel anyway is a good way. But would like to hear more from the heavier ecoers especially from Corps because I'm guessing this'll be separate from Faction specific PMODS? Or will they follow the same if like stolen is it temp, certain batch amount, perm?

I guess this is a good thing to figure out. I like the current system you had, makes people think and kind of dedicate toward a path before trying to juggle more with extra funds. But I feel permanent could work for some (clothing could be a perm mod, etc vs things like ammo, meds would make sense for temp pmod's, maybe even armor be perm at a high cost) so a mix of the system? Could have some perm, can have some temp but can even be offered different times for different amounts (1mo 1k uc, 3mo 2.8k uc, etc) or even "batch amounts" like pmod to make 1,000 hack tools for x uc where it may cost more in the end or even stolen since it could be a physical pmod like faction specific ones vs temp/perm ones are "digital" and always tied to you for usage as long active. But is that too much and complicated vs settling for one overall system that would make understanding and calculating things in easier lol

Edit; Too add onto the mix of perm vs temp: things like ammo and meds will always need stockpiling where clothing not so much, so having those be perm vs temp will insentivize more people to snag it to produce and sell and help continue to bring that stuff into the eco and keep up with high moving items. It even fits ammo and meds, etc would be temp because some corpo would never let people freely monopolize off a single purchase but always tax it and subscription it for continued income.

Hell, you can even tie these to the actual faction Corps as play money so the players can't necessarily steal to benefit and abuse but use on their conquests or whatever high factional spendings that'll need to happen. See this is why we need the big eco heads even for the simplest of stuff, I just make drug then sell drug, ezpz

 

[Chip Lawrie]

I think mixing the two would be interesting. Generic items (I.e. most components and some basic gear/clothing) should be one and done while branded items (anything with a brand name or factional exclusives) should be licensed every month or two.

I think it fits lore wise and provides a better ongoing money sink for the better gear. I’d even go one further and have some ‘open source’ stuff for super eco newbies.

I sort of see progression for ecoers going from open source components -> generic gear and clothes -> complex branded items requiring multiple industrial processes and eco lines.

The basic starter ecoers should have minimal starting costs but still have their role in the ecosystem.

 

[BioXide]

I'll start by saying I think anyway is fine, at least for me, I eco a bit but I felt I never cared, ill make it work, but maybe that's because I feel anyway is a good way. But would like to hear more from the heavier ecoers especially from Corps because I'm guessing this'll be separate from Faction specific PMODS? Or will they follow the same if like stolen is it temp, certain batch amount, perm?

I guess this is a good thing to figure out. I like the current system you had, makes people think and kind of dedicate toward a path before trying to juggle more with extra funds. But I feel permanent could work for some so a mix of the system? Could have some perm, can have some temp but can even be offered different times for different amounts (1mo 1k uc, 3mo 2.8k uc, etc) or even "batch amounts" like pmod to make 1,000 hack tools for x uc where it may cost more in the end or even stolen since it could be a physical pmod like faction specific ones vs temp/perm ones are "digital" and always tied to you for usage as long active. But is that too much and complicated vs settling for one overall system that would make understanding and calculating things in easier lol

Yeah, this is separate from faction/territory pmods, factions will be able to research pmods into territories and unlock usage of them, then they can decide who can use them in their territories, just a small overview of it since we haven't gone deep into that yet.

 

[HBnY]

License are colony based. For example, you buy a license in Mars to produce PP69. You can only produce PP69 in Mars. If you want to produce PP69 in Ceres, gotta buy another license in Mars. Also I am for temporary licenses but only for T2 and up gears. T1s shouldnt require licenses to produce

 

[BioXide]

License are colony based. For example, you buy a license in Mars to produce PP69. You can only produce PP69 in Mars. If you want to produce PP69 in Ceres, gotta buy another license in Mars. Also I am for temporary licenses but only for T2 and up gears. T1s shouldnt require licenses to produce

this is achieved indirectly with factions researching pmods in production/refining territories they own

 

[Chip Lawrie]

Another version might be having a limited wallet for certain PMoDs up to X number of item as above or in perpetuity until you change the wallet load out.

I can actually see this being an interesting twist on the pmod system.

Like have pmod libraries where you can have any number of licences and pmod wallets where you can have two or three.

The wallet is what you carry on you (like a usb stick?) and is what is plugged into the terminals to determine what to 3D print (like an STL). The wallet can ofc be dropped on death and each pmod has only like 50 uses.

The library is all the pmods you’ve bought but you have to go to a terminal and swap out the stuff in your wallet manually (paying a fee each time)…

 

[Tornadium]

My vote would be a mixture of the Eve Production BP system (With slight variation).


All items have a Blueprint, If you want a permanent Blueprint you can purchase one however producing with the basic blueprint provides no bonuses to resource efficiency or production time. If you want an efficient blueprint you need to research and copy the blueprint which have limited production runs. We could implement a similar system here except also plug in some Star Wars Galaxies inspiration.

Keep the ability to purchase base blueprints for most items (I would still advocate for faction exclusives, blueprints tied to territory control and PvE Drop only blueprints for high tier/rare items) and allow players to research and copy blueprints with the appropriate territory upgrades. The blueprint copies would be more efficient depending on the type of research performed giving bonuses to resource efficiency or production time (I'm sure you could factor in other bonuses), The additional choice would be to allow the crafters to tweak stats on the items during research to create variants. You could for example take a base item blueprint, Research it and create a copy which has higher damage but at a detriment to maximum item condition or recoil control. There are many ways to tweak and balance a system like this.

This would also act as a regular money sink for PMODs without having to make them temporary allowing casual players to jump in and out at will but for the players that want to really dedicate to it then they have the opportunity to experiment and push the system to cover what they need. Yes this would require players to engage with the research system to remain market competitive for maximum profit but that's not a bad thing.

 

[Ranfre]

What if each production terminal has a set of pmods built in. There can be a basic set that's always enabled and then a dynamic set that changes on some regular basis per colony and can maybe have a limited amount allowed to produce. These pmods can be free which allows everyone some place to start. But there could also be paid pmods which allow a buyer to produce at any terminal they want and without being affected by the limit on the terminal. These pmods can be more expensive and also have items not available at all in the free rotation

 

[Fowl]

As Mankind Reborn’s bestest eco king here are my thoughts:

Having to renew licenses may seem stupid but it’s a good way to keep a money sink around. It also serves to gatekeep ecoing which I am totally for. Many things irl have some kind of subscription service where you have to renew at the end of a ‘term’, kinda like car insurance. Maybe these renewals can vary in time, kinda similar to how you buy storage. You could choose to purchase for a day or maybe a month. I do think some special pmods should be linked to territory to encourage beef or territory acquisition.

 

[Wilbon]

Haven't read through all of the thread but I think any way is acceptable, although my proposition is that pmods have a certain amount of uses before needing to be bought again? You can then vary it per pmod or per pmod category so that a pmod for medkits is good for say 500 medkits, where a pmod for a gun is only good for 50 and tweak/balance that value, along with the associated cost, as necessary.

While acceptable, I would rank permanent licenses at the bottom of the list of preference because what that does is lock a player into that pmod / market and doesn't impose a recurring cost. Once you've made your money back in profits, the only cost is production cost which will just get eaten into the price point of the items and be leftover with pure profit. With some kind of limited pmod system, you ensure at some point the player has to invest more money in as a recurring money sink.

As mentioned, this also helps us avoid players getting locked into a market. Say you purchase a pmod for something that isn't incredibly high demand, unknowing, and that pmod was very expensive because you own it forever. You've now spent a large amount of your capital and may not be able to enter another market, forcing you to try to grind it out or attempt other avenues to make money so you can try a new market. Where if its limited uses or time-gated, you could buy a pmod and if the market isn't hot for it / your political circumstances change and it's not viable to you, you can swap over to a different market. You'll still eat a loss, but you're not completely screwed.

 

[BioXide]

this is some good stuff guys, have some rep

What if each production terminal has a set of pmods built in. There can be a basic set that's always enabled and then a dynamic set that changes on some regular basis per colony and can maybe have a limited amount allowed to produce. These pmods can be free which allows everyone some place to start. But there could also be paid pmods which allow a buyer to produce at any terminal they want and without being affected by the limit on the terminal. These pmods can be more expensive and also have items not available at all in the free rotation

this is mechanically supported but I haven't thought about it that way, currently production materials are built into refining terminals, I do like the idea of expanding built-in pmods, can be a good way to differentiate production/refining territories, such as territories focused on ammo, weapons, chemicals, etc, instead of just allowing players to produce anything in every production territory

 

[Sodi]

I don't think permanent licenses are a good idea, as it creates a fixed ceiling for eco progression. I don't like timed licenses because they create a feeling of waste if you aren't creating those items every second while you own the license. Well, then per-item licenses it is. But what is the point, You can just add their cost over production cost in the terminal, which feels like a useless step.
What about a mix between permanent and per-item? Ecoer can enter into a partnership with a patent-holder company and then buy licenses for their items. The more you buy, the more you increase your relations with that company, which leads to either lifting certain restrictions, like you can now buy rare item schematics or you can buy more schematics at once (for bulk discount), or certain advantages, like alternative recopies that skip one of the refinement steps, saving the players some time.
These partnerships can be restricted somewhat; either player can enter x amount of them at a time, or some of them are bitter rivals, and you can't partner with both of them at the same time. This way, players will have access to a certain pool of items they can produce, and opens up gates to some strategy-making from the player's side. Different companies can have different methods of refinement to get the same item, and certain combinations of partnerships can lead to great results for certain items while less so for others.
While this creates a great incentive to narrowly specialise, the progression here should be simple and the penalties for switching mild, so players can still adapt to a changing market without feeling like they have greatly lost out.

Example:
You want to produce some Fuel cells. You sign up with Energy Solutions Ltd. and get access to the blueprint. You need Metal alloy, Polymerized plasma, and uranium for the production.
You can go with either Alloys Inc. or Refining Solutions Inc. for metal alloys. Refining Solutions would also give you access to aluminum refining, which you can use later for pistol batteries, which you have access to thanks to your contract with Energy Solutions Ltd.
Alloys Inc. gives you access to steel alloys that you might need for sniper batteries. You choose to go with Alloys Inc. because you think that's a better item to produce later, and who uses pistols anyway? You also throw Helios into the mix for that Polymerized plasma. You get the raw materials and return to the production terminal; you have access to everything you need. You make a bunch of Fuel Cells and put them on the market. But what is that?! Someone flooded the market with a bunch of cheap sniper batteries; Guess you should have gone with Refining Solutions instead. Well, at least producing all that was enough to unlock a small bonus from Alloys Inc.; now you can feed coal directly into the alloy refining process instead of refining it to carbon first, and as luck may have it, one of your faction mates needs some of those alloys. Guess this partnership might work out after all.

Some of the companies might be subsidiaries of megacorps, changing their relations with players based on their faction and megacorps' relations with it, while others might be found on colonies, changing their relations based on governor policies or colony ownership.

 

[Ranfre]

I don't think permanent licenses are a good idea,.. ...I don't like timed licenses

absolute shit take
having to grind rep by crafting items to unlock others, worst idea in history
'incentive to narrowly specialize'... who the fuck would want that?

 

[Fowl]

Personally, I am for some kind of crafting/pmod tech tree. It may let long time ecoers capitalize in what they do best if they decide to invest time to go down a certain branch on this tree, ammo for example. It also gives new ecoers something to look forward too. Obviously the crafted product and money gains are their own reward but it feels good to know you're making progress towards something, especially your character. It would help to further cement your being in this world of mankind, like yea, "my character can specifically do this very well and thats what im known for and it's taken me X amount of hours to get here".

I know some peeps dont like that idea behind locked behind some kind of tech tree that you have to 'grind' out and it may give an unfair advantage to someone who spends more time in the game, but thats usually how it is tbh. Dude spends more time in game so he's gonna be a higher level, thats just maths. However, I feel its very important to decide on how one would progress through this tech tree. Either through Reputation gain, X amount of said items crafted, or maybe just spending more credits to obtain more advanced pmods. Its important that this process doesnt feel too grindy.

 

[Sodi]

absolute shit take
having to grind rep by crafting items to unlock others, worst idea in history
'incentive to narrowly specialize'... who the fuck would want that?

'...incentive to narrowly specialise, the progression here should be simple and the penalties for switching mild, so players can still adapt to a changing market without feeling like they have greatly lost out.'
Most people wouldn't that's why one shouldn't feel penalized if they do switch, but if someone does stick to a narrow specialisation there is a benefit for that as well.
And when I say narrow, its not like one or two items or even a single set of items. Its like choosing cards you want from a full deck , you can't have all of them, but you can cover most things with what you have.
As for grinding rep, no necessarily that was only one of the examples. The best here would probably be alternative schematics that skip some of the production steps and save you time (not money).

 

[Kazuma Torisuna]

IMO there's a decent way to sort of hybrid this with a middle of the road solution that bolsters community gameplay mechanics.

Have the licenses be permanent, but allow factions that hold colonies to prohibit or restrict licenses.

For example, lets say Faction A controls colony 1 which has resource A, B and C and often produces products X, Y, Z.

They might be in an economic competition with Faction B, and maybe even Faction C has been assaulting the colonies producers to try to take over the market.

Allow Faction A to remove the ability to produce any product for Faction B, or maybe they can't produce product X or Y specifically. Or maybe even Faction C isn't allowed to produce any products of a certain type like ammo

I feel that having this flexibility will empower the political side of the game and create reasons for war and peace. To allow the factions to have more interfaction diplomatic options.

In addition controls over the taxes on a faction base would be good as well. Factions can negotiate the taxes between each other and create lucrative deals, or use them to issue sanctions against an offending faction.