The Gear Grind Problem

FinalPixie

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Alpha Tester
Mar 1, 2018
15
Civil Protection Commission
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Service Points: 0
Discussion:
This topic is mainly about Gear/Ecoing and how it affects our daily content and PvP.

Problem:
FoM was focused more on PvP, it was also the most fun part about the game. Everyone loved ganking and talking trash which made for a really interesting community we have today! Though what most people, including me, understand from the current Mankind Reborn build is... grinding for hours and hours for Union Credits through Ecoing!

Yes we're tired of having to go from places to places to get mining ores, refine them and put them on a planet which has the easiest access to a Refinery and a Mining Station. That really takes the fun away from the game. However, this has nothing to do against Ecoing, I really like crafting my gear! I do it in alot of games. Except in this one, I lose all that hard earning gear if I died. And dying is normal in a PvP game. Though it really makes me think twice if I should come back for a visit later and leave the game aside for awhile if I lost all my gear. This might make new players quit/refund the build stays the same when it launches to Steam Early Access (Pretty sure the majority of you all know how the Reviews work and how it affects the player base). I (and most probably majority of the player base) don't think anyone wants to do chores in a PvP game, for me, would rather do some Training and Patrolling with my fellow CDC Officers!

Future Thoughts:
Those who haven't caught up, are going to be either left behind or be given limited resources depending on how long the game has settled. If the game has already been out for a few months in the same build, it would no doubt have lost a ton of players but the long term players (like us) would already have spare armor. However, the game would already receive multiple negative feedback's on the review page, meaning we'll get less players in game for that extra beef!

Suggestions:
There should be a daily allowance of gear donated by the system to each Faction. These gear can be accessed in the Faction storage. Each gear (From Head to Toe) can be obtained for a limited amount (maybe 5) each day. This goes the same for Weapons and Ammo. These gears are Limited, marked with an (L) beside them to mark destruction upon death. Medkits and Food are to be crafted hence I'm sure each Faction has an ecoing Department. One group guards/ganks, the other does some Ecoing. This to me and some others that agreed, seem to really like this rotation. There are people that would play the game for the entire day so this is my best idea I could give.

Another idea would be to sell Limited (L) armor by default in the Market Kiosk but they would have a lower durability and stats, making Ecoers profit and benefit from their crafts. Same with weapons.

Last idea would be make mining cheaper.

Note:
I was told there are Faction-Based Missions planned but the current build is just... o_O in terms of getting money to craft gear.

Also Note:
I have nothing against getting ganked while having no gear at all and while Ecoing. But it would be fun if certain Patrols could do their jobs protecting Ecoers and watch them flee while the CPC deals with the threat or gets killed. Let us have our fun of defending and failing without a huge amount of loss in our time investment is all I'm saying. This goes to the gankers too who have put their time and effort into crafting gear. Lets kill each other instead of crafting all day, m'kay?

TDLR:
This game has become a daily grind.
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

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Jun 14, 2017
105
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: R6
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It's a grind due to it being a pre alpha. There is talk about some starter gear than just scratch however I disagree on limited or injected gear as it will still have unintended effects on the market ie why waste uc when you get lives to beef before you log
 
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Apr 13, 2018
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North Star
Mining
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Instead of adding a bunch of new features for this particular aspect, or handing out things, what should be done (personal opinion) is make the systems that are already here, a bit more smooth.

Losing all your items is pretty hardcore on its own, let's get this out of the way. We didn't have that even in original FoM. Lowering the chances of losing items EQUIPPED, to a moderate yet still kind of risky percentage (definitely under 50%), or quite possibly removing the feature of losing your equipment altogether, would probably make you feel more at ease while leaving the PvP element intact. It's still harsh out there, it's still lose some win some, so it's good.

As for the economy right now and how expensive things are, I won't say too much, I think you're right for the most part.

All in all I can't say that you're wrong. As of right now things are pretty hardcore. Being hardcore is not bad, but there's a fine line between grindfest and sandbox mmo. Things will probably get better soon, at this point we're all still settling in. Nothing is final, and the devs are players of the old game, we've all been through that phase and that's where the inspiration comes from so I can definitely see the game slowly moving that way, economy and feature wise. Keeping my hopes up.
 
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BioXide

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This playtest was meant to be an eco/combat stress test, there's a lack of content atm due to isolating the current build and just identifying/fixing as much bugs and stressing out the eco to see how it performs on the long term. This current build is not a representation of how the game is going to be in alpha/beta/early access, it even says so on the main menu.

Like I mentioned before, never expected things to get more popular to the point that people are playing this as they did with FoM, we'll see how long the numbers will last.

Now I do agree things are a bit rough, but at the same time ecoing should be a team effort unless you're a spreadsheet lord with a lot of disposable income, from what I could gather, it just needs better messaging and UX.

Cloning insurance is something that will be coming into the current build to allow players to spend UC to protect their gear through multiple levels of insurance. The most expensive one preventing your gear to drop like how it worked back in FoM.
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
105
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: R6
Service Points: 1
Banaroth eve has the same mechanics and it works fine however eve is also a finished product where MR is in pre alpha i say we leave the system alone until all systems are in place and then tweak as needed
 
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Apr 13, 2018
2
North Star
Mining
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Sawyer, I respect that, but still it's a different type of gameplay and system, and it draws a specific type of playerbase. And thankfully for them, it's a lot of people that enjoy that gameplay (ofc the space/sci fi setting is what draws them in the most but still), still doesn't mean it's a good recipe.

Darkfall used to do something similar too. But you can't really use Darkfall as a good example, the gameplay was so quirky that people just didn't want to stick with it. They didn't want to invest their time and money and resources.

And with all due respect to what FoM used to be at least at the end, I really wouldn't like to see MR become a circlejerk of just a small amount of veterans that run the game until it's dead. You need to make it beginner-friendly, bring people in, keep it interesting for the casuals and don't exhaust them while allowing the veterans to have fun in the meantime. So if people whine about the economy, there must be something that they see. They can't be just whining.

Imagine if this was the final build (which ofc isn't, not even close, don't get me wrong). I guarantee you, no new player sticks around, we're already toxic enough as we are and we already have a culture and connection inside the game that most new players probably won't be able to grasp (including the FoM history, the references, etc.), we're making and learning things too fast, we're accustomed to quirky systems but that doesn't mean they are good, things are super tough, so we're going back to having 100 players who just play until the game dies out of love and melancholy.

Maybe you're right in that it doesn't have to be a priority, not sure about that but maybe we have other issues to address, sure. Bio said he's keeping it inside the fomunity for now, I read it a while ago I think, and it makes sense, we need to sort everything out in order for everything I said above to be able to work. Patience is key.

Bio said he's moving along nicely and it looks like it, and the insurance system sounds great. I see it getting better and better as time goes by, really, especially if you look at the roadmap of what the devs are working on, I'm keeping my hopes up super high. Keep it up.
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
105
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: R6
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I'm down for an updated economy I've been trying to have bio adopt the BPO and BPC system from eve instead of expiration dates for the pmods my only problem is adding artificial gear to a market sure everyone can get five sets of standard gear. War breaks out they use the five sets and they log off in the long run it will hurt the market because eve tried that with NPC built ships and it just crashed 70% of the economy outside of carriers titians and battlecruisers

PS: @bio fix my fucking rank on the forums
 

BioXide

Founder

Staff member
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Management
Jun 1, 2017
473
Portland, Oregon
Guns of the Conclave
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Sawyer, I respect that, but still it's a different type of gameplay and system, and it draws a specific type of playerbase. And thankfully for them, it's a lot of people that enjoy that gameplay (ofc the space/sci fi setting is what draws them in the most but still), still doesn't mean it's a good recipe.

Darkfall used to do something similar too. But you can't really use Darkfall as a good example, the gameplay was so quirky that people just didn't want to stick with it. They didn't want to invest their time and money and resources.

And with all due respect to what FoM used to be at least at the end, I really wouldn't like to see MR become a circlejerk of just a small amount of veterans that run the game until it's dead. You need to make it beginner-friendly, bring people in, keep it interesting for the casuals and don't exhaust them while allowing the veterans to have fun in the meantime. So if people whine about the economy, there must be something that they see. They can't be just whining.

Imagine if this was the final build (which ofc isn't, not even close, don't get me wrong). I guarantee you, no new player sticks around, we're already toxic enough as we are and we already have a culture and connection inside the game that most new players probably won't be able to grasp (including the FoM history, the references, etc.), we're making and learning things too fast, we're accustomed to quirky systems but that doesn't mean they are good, things are super tough, so we're going back to having 100 players who just play until the game dies out of love and melancholy.

Maybe you're right in that it doesn't have to be a priority, not sure about that but maybe we have other issues to address, sure. Bio said he's keeping it inside the fomunity for now, I read it a while ago I think, and it makes sense, we need to sort everything out in order for everything I said above to be able to work. Patience is key.

Bio said he's moving along nicely and it looks like it, and the insurance system sounds great. I see it getting better and better as time goes by, really, especially if you look at the roadmap of what the devs are working on, I'm keeping my hopes up super high. Keep it up.
I wouldn't also want this game to end up only as a circle jerk but quite frankly it's inevitable, I made a decision to only focus on the fommunity as this game is just too niche and there's just way too many things in the market that I'd rather not waste time competing for the attention of new players and just double down on our community.

Yes we can make the game more approachable for new players and provide better ux/messaging to flatten the learning curve, but that's just about it, wanting to appeal to outside the niche and doubling down on that is one of the reasons that fom died.
 
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FinalPixie

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Darkfall used to do something similar too. But you can't really use Darkfall as a good example, the gameplay was so quirky that people just didn't want to stick with it. They didn't want to invest their time and money and resources.
I played Archeage + Unchained, I did not want to mention it here because the game has a bad reputation for being Pay to Win and grindy. But the game being grindy alone was enough to make 80% of the playerbase leave. I wouldn't want that to happen in MR. I had to login each day and farm dailies all morning (8am - 12pm) and then host/join events from (2pm - 8pm). Yes that game took the entire day to finish dailies. Those who did not do dailies fell behind in gearscore.
 

Jade Star

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Jun 28, 2017
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Avalon Enterprises
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I would think factions pools, faction missions and more people playing to make a better economy would alleviate some of this but we don't have that yet so we just got to wait until its added to see how it all works out. But yeah dailies are shit, their the chores of gaming and they need to stop or be made in to a quick easy thing to do. I like how the mining is now and hope BioXide does not change it in to FoTD mining or that would be a REAL annoying grind.
 

Sawyer Anderson

Dilettante

Golden Donator
Alpha Tester
Jun 14, 2017
105
Sitka, Alaska
Oda Zaibatsu
Rank: R6
Service Points: 1
I'm willing to accept faction pools on the argument that it's made from players and is from the economy and not inflated magic gear that just appears
 
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Hepopotan

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Jul 24, 2017
8
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Gear that just pops into existence is a bad idea all over, it will drive eco/market incentives down by a lot. Accompanied by an active community (including ecolords), faction pools should be suffice to provide for members of a faction without having to go though the hell that is excel and eco'ing themselves.

New players would be able to get their gear from these pools, and to that extent the HC should be able to lock certain sets of gear and items in the pool to only be distributed out to certain ranks/explicitly whitelisted players, with a cooldown to prevent them from draining the pool. I think flushing out the faction pool mechanic and allowing HC made-contracts designed around liquidating it will be good to solve the grind issue for new players.

That said, I do think new players should learn how to eco within a tutorial to teach them the basics (from mining, refining, production, to market) with making maybe a simple item like one yield of medkits/ammo.
 

Sam Lysander

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Oct 23, 2018
38
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Oda Zaibatsu
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Gear that just pops into existence is a bad idea all over, it will drive eco/market incentives down by a lot. Accompanied by an active community (including ecolords), faction pools should be suffice to provide for members of a faction without having to go though the hell that is excel and eco'ing themselves.

New players would be able to get their gear from these pools, and to that extent the HC should be able to lock certain sets of gear and items in the pool to only be distributed out to certain ranks/explicitly whitelisted players, with a cooldown to prevent them from draining the pool. I think flushing out the faction pool mechanic and allowing HC made-contracts designed around liquidating it will be good to solve the grind issue for new players.

That said, I do think new players should learn how to eco within a tutorial to teach them the basics (from mining, refining, production, to market) with making maybe a simple item like one yield of medkits/ammo.
A few notes on this whole thing, this topic started with the notion that you already decided PVP was the most fun part of the game, to which I will immediately disagree, as I enjoy ecoing. Now I will acknowledge that a lot of people arent like that, but making assumptions this early based on a singular point of view like that isnt going to get us very far.

As was said earlier, it may be best to wait and see what happens as other faction mechanics get added. It was denoted several times that a player's interactions with their factions are fully intended to be a better source of both income and content for the player, and these daily contracts are to fall to the wayside as a way to pay your 'passive bills' such as storage upgrade fees, apartment fees, all of the random little expenses that the player is going to have in the future. Factional content is what is going to keep the players in the game, and will be the main focus, it isnt going to be solely a grindy game, and I do believe the features will reflect that in due time.

On to why I'm quoting hepopotan's post, it is a very good note that faction pools are indeed a thing, and as the game kicks up and the economy rolls out, these very pools have supplied the combat oriented players of the past and were created by the community within the game. I would not support any magically spawned/handed out gear items as that takes away from the ecoing aspect of the game that is a very important role in this particular setting, so much so that three entire factions are based on this content, it cannot be written off like that.

I have enjoyed reading the posts made by Banaroth as they indeed reflect what we are looking at. The game isn't in its final stages, but its also not solely a combat game and it would be wise to remember this. Getting large amounts of gear, or getting together a bunch of the expensive gear, is going to take time, and its going to be expensive, and thats exactly how it should be. Do not let yourself become so distracted with this fact that we forget factional content is coming, other ways of making money are coming, and market competition is a thing. We are pre alpha right now, and as these systems are more fleshed out, we will continue to improve upon older features until we come to a point where the entire community has something they enjoy.

It would be entirely a waste of effort at this point in time as bio has said to focus on the new player experience. and tutorials. Specifically at this stage of developement. Why start making tutorials right now, based on what information will we make these tutorials? Speculation? Absolutely not, we cannot focus on the new player experience until we have a game that we are satisfied with, otherwise how are we going to know what to put in the tutorial? All in all right now this is a waiting game, we are testing features, ironing out bugs. Gear has to be ecoed and we start with nothing. Thats the only reason theres not a bunch of gear floating around. Your problem will virtually disappear with time and development, as we have a playerbase that does nothing that ecoes as well as a playerbase that enjoys combat. Keep your head up and be patient, this current state of the game is far from the intended final product, and is a step in the journey.
 
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Cadonez

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Jul 29, 2017
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Brumpapa
The Syndicate
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I would support very basic and low quality gear being made available in faction pools with color being set by faction leaders. Something of a cadet/pledge uniform to get very basic players familiar with stats.
 
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Ren Astarot

Clone

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May 13, 2020
4
Terran Defense Corps
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I'm just going to point out real quick, on a simple point of: Having a strong market based eco means that items must be lost and or destroyed, thus creating a demand for those items. Eve online eco for example is created upon "Farm-Create-Destroy." model
 
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